Warren Throckmorton

Thanks for the forum, Warren. It is agreed that as part of this dialogue we will misunderstand often, but I will seek to understand.

To add emphasis to the above items:

I am particularly concerned with the male mind and its impulsivity and poor planning skills during adolescence.

I think we could have a lot of agreement about how to support gays and straights during this vulnerable time to insure a long and happy life.

David Blakeslee
 

The issue of being perceived as gay has haunted me personally all my life. As a young teenager I was not very feminine and occasionally mistaken for a boy. As a straight woman in ex-gay ministry (sorry to use the X word, but old habits...) it was generally assumed by people who didn't know me that I must be from a gay background. Then in seminary in my late 30s, it was again assumed I was gay (or ex-gay) because I was a "never married" woman. Who didn't date. There are all kinds of subtle prejudices that come with these perceptions. They are "single women" issues that include not being taken seriously because there's no "base," a spouse and children, to prove that you are a full functioning human being. Men, particularly in a conservative church setting, are loathe to be seen spending time talking about professional issues let alone social/personal time because of the perception of wrongdoing. Also in a conservative church setting, for some reason it's okay for married women to be involved in public ministry, but single women are considered a threat if they are attractive, or discounted if they are not.
 

I think Ed may have been correct - this is long list and it may be difficult to manage the comments on all at once.

Here it is again:
1. Ethical therapeutic practices.
2. Protecting gays and lesbians in public and private settings.
3. Forbidding discrimination in employment and housing.
4. Access to quality sex education (not advocacy education)
5. Encouraging delay in sexual expression (heterosexuals also) into early 20's.
6. Building a consensus on the scientific literature on same-sex attraction (a general title).
7. Protecting all groups (gay and straight) from sexual exploitation.
8. Encouraging the bonding of love as an expression of empathy and devotion with the behavior of sex."

Interpretation of each point is key. I am not sure what #8 means. I assume it means to reunite love and sex in the culture thus is a statement against promiscuity. If that is what it meant, then I am for that. I do not think we are bettered by valuing sex as a sport.

I am not sure an age can be applied to when sex is optimal. For myself and my family, it means until marriage but this is a value decision and cannot be agreed on for someone else. In general, I agree with public health recommendations to delay sexual debut and reduce number of sexual partners. I would like to see high schools become safety conscious where sex is concerned as opposed to permissive. Colleges too. Condom olympics doesn't seem like it sets the proper context for delay and reduction.

Robbi said it well: What I'd like to see stated somehow is that organizations like EXODUS, churches, civic groups make a statement that they are in agreement that it is morally and ethically wrong, not just illegal, to discriminate against, perpetrate violence against(verbal or physical), or otherwise infringe on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, anyone who identifies as gay or lesbian or is perceived to be gay or lesbian.

At the same time, I'd like to see an agreement that religious organizations are not prevented from continuing to say publicly that sexual behavior of any stripe is sin without being accused of hate speech.
 

I think we need to get the word out that being violently reactive to either feminized men (simple term, there may be a better term) or masculinized women (ditto) in school, church, work and recreation is so wrong.

It is not seeing people.

I think the research is pretty clear that this is rooted in a very brittle sense of gender for the assailant...and I think that fragileness is even more likely for adolescents.

I think that is why safety programs where adolescents congregate make so much sense.

Gender atypical adolescents through fear and intimidation can be coerced into a false proclamation of their sexual identity before it is fully formed, before they fully know.

I am sure this happens with proclaiming a heterosexual identity. I suppose it is possible, but extremely rare, that a gender atypical adolescent could prematurely identify as gay or lesbian in order to make sense of their "out of synch" feelings and experiences. Although, what a huge risk.

Just some thoughts...but I think they have implications for constructing safety plans for adolescents.

Share yours.

David Blakeslee
 

Michael, goofball. Thanks for the gush. But I shall admit publicly now that you and Warren inspired me with your own "statements."

David: safety programs. I think in terms of prevention programs because of where I work at USC (Dept of Preventive Medicine). There's a growing body of scholarly support for adding sexual orientation issues to anti-bullying prevention programs already in place in the U.S. Friedman et al (2006) speaks to the need for adapting such programs to include gay-identified youth issues and change policies at the school district, state and national levels to reflect same.

I suppose this is something we could be advocating for with our state legislators. Certainly it could be addressed at school districts and PTAs, etc. Such programs are apparently vastly improved where thare are also gay-friendly youth orgs in place.

It is not enough to wait for parents and teachers to "notice" injuries or suicidal tendencies. There should be programs that support kids who are already or on their way to being gay-identified.

IF anyone's interested in more reading on this, google pubmed, plug in prevention bullying homosexuality as keywords and hit search. There's not a lot, but it's beginning to happen.
 

Michael: I don't have enough background to answer you. Thinking outloud mostly. Kids who do self-identify as gay must've had a period of time before they put their finger on it. I only know adults who put their finger on it in their late teens. But what if we could help kids in the tween ages be comfortable with who they are? Whatever that is? I'm thinking of a friend's 11 yr old son who's been a victim of bullying at school, who's self perceptions are being skewed by the fact that he has no privacy at home. His bedroom has been taken over by his mother who won't sleep with his father anymore, and because of space limitation in the house, the son is now sleeping with the father and has been for some time. He's sexually maturing in an environment where he has no support at home or at school. It's a mess.

On one hand I would like to see gay community support groups for kids, but what do you do with the ones who aren't self-identifying gay? And what the hell do you do with the ones who are going to be on the road to identifying as a transsexual? And what the hell do you do with any of them coming from a conservative Muslim, Jewish, Christian background whose parents would never agree to them seeing a gay-friendly counselor or be in a gay-friendly group?

Okay, I'm depressing myself here.
 

Here's another example of yet another NARTH advisor (Gerald Schonewolf) suggesting that it is not destructive to ostracize kids and that such social pressure is necessary for the survival of the species. Read the whole thing. I kid you not. Check it out.
http://www.narth.com/docs/removal.html

Are they serious?
 

To the anonymous commenter regarding the NARTH piece: I agree that the articles recently called into question by Dr. Schoenewolf reflect poor judgement, poor scholarship and both in several instances.

I do not know Dr. Schoenewolf but I cannot understand how he could say conditions might have been better in the slave trade versus being in Africa. How one could study the historical period and assert that is beyond me.

I have alerted NARTH regarding my reactions.
 

Wow, this is very interesting. After so many years of separation, we find ourselves communicating in a loving and intelligent way. I'm very impressed and also wondering if God is up to something. Prior to this summer, I haven't stepped foot in a spirit filled Chrisitan church in 23 years. Cathy became Episcopalian and she became the spiritual head in our family. The kids both got confirmed and remain Episcoplian. I have gone to the pretty cool Unitarian Church in Mahtomedi a few times. I really love the pastor, she is amazing. However, I miss my roots. I miss having a personal and dynamic relationship with God. About 6 weeks ago I read an ariticle from the NY Times about a local St. Paul pastor, Gred Boyd, who stood up against the religious right back in 2004. He has a mega church and is a Bethel Grad and Bethel professor. He is all about love and grace. He lost 1000 members when he refused to back Bush from the pulpit and in fact preached a series of sermons about patriotism being idolitry. He will occasionally use a swear word and even talked about drinking too much wine and getting "buzzed". He is very authentic. He doesn't care who he offends. He welcomes all sinners and has no "rules" to follow. If you want to worship God and love Jesus your IN! He says there is no place for shame or judgement in the Church. If you want to be here, you are welcome. Nobody gets to make you stop smoking, drinking, having sex or gosipping. Its up to the Hold Spirit to lead and he may dang well lead two believers into different conclusions. I emailed Ed yesterday with all of this. I just don't know what is getting into me. I haven't been this excitied about anything for a long long time. I've gone to church and cried my eyes out about 5 times in the past two months. I actually feel accepted there. I havent met a soul, (on purpose) I just need to be in a place where I can praise God and not feel second class. For some reason, this is touching much more than an MCC church or reconciling congregation. For me if feels like a major movement of the Holy Spirit. A very conservative evangelical chruch that doesn't have any litmus tests. I cried walking out because and saw several people lighting up cigarettes in the parking lot. Oh my God, you don't have to pretend to be perfect?? You don't have to hide your issues or choices? You really are free to be yourself, no strings. It's still early and I may yet become disillusioned but for now i feel incredibly blessed. I will try to find my way into your "Common Ground" discussion. I just had to ramble about this for awhile. Google Greg Boyd, Woodland Hills Church St. Paul. His sermons are all online. I'd love it if any of you would take a listen and tell me what you think you are hearing. Thanks for listening. Thanks for the invite to join y'all.
 

Ladies and Gentleman By George I think you've/
we've got it. God is indeed and has been "UP TO SOMETHING"! 30 plus years in the making. I had a vision about 15 years ago while driving across the Golden Gate Bridge. A healing and reconciliation and an out pouring of God's love to everyone including the LGBT community. I am a film maker and the vision laid on my heart was a production company called Hope Unlimited Productions which came to fruition this year and the film He put on my heart 15 years ago is called "For Such A Time As This" I have been working on it for about 9 months now. I have interviewed and/or filmed all or most of the key events and all the main players on bothsides of this issue & other prominate voices including our man of the hour and fellow brother who is also fascinated with the history of the ex-gay ministries Dr. Warren Throckmorten, Michael Bussey, John Evans, Frank and Anita Worthen,Kent Philpott, Alan Chambers, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi,Wayne Besen, Melissa Fryrear, Randy Thomas, Bill Maier, Mike Goeke, Sy Rogers,Nancy Heche,Joe Dallas, Ralph Blair,Mel White,Jeff Lutes,Chad Allen, Jack Rogers,Marsha Stevens, Peggy Campolo, Tony Camplolo, and many othersfrom both perspectives ...the response has been overwhelming . What seemed obvious to me back then has taken a long time to come to pass. Now there is real communication and the healing has begun! We've all played important roles in this story (history) that seems to be coming full circle 30 plus years later. Could it be "For Such A Time As This" that you all have been reconnected? I think so. I'm so glad we are all WAKING UP! God is ALIVE AND WELL AND WORKING IN OUR HEARTS AND CALLING US TO REACH A NATION WITH GOD"S UNCONDITION LOVE.HIS LOVE IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE including LGBT folks. He meets us where we are and he will make all nessesary changes our job as Christians include The Simple Basics : To Love God and to Love your neigbor as your self, to do unto others as you would have done unto you. God will take care of the rest. My favorite saying is that People won't know what a friend they have in Jesus until they know what a friend they have in you! If you are reading this...Robbie,Ed and Jeff I would love to interview you. God is definitely doing something SPECIAL here! It's a good thing we are all paying attention.:)
 

Warren (and others),
I'm writing with my "teacher hat" on now....although, as you all well-know, my experiences certainly color my opinions.

The only point that flys right past me is #8. The words love, bonding, empathy, and devotion are abstract and difficult for educators to get a firm consensus or grasp on when relating to students from such varied backgrounds and experiences. I guess I'm assuming, maybe wrongfully so, that #4 (quality sex education) means that we'd probably hit on most of these at some point in public education...it's got to start that early if any difference is to be made within our culture over the long haul.

#8 makes it sound like we're going to say it's okay to have sex as long as you are bonded and empathetic to those you are having sex with. Heck...that would pretty much create a school-wide orgy at the middle school level!

I'm loving this discussion!

in Christ,
pam whitley, a.k.a. grace
 

Pam - Good to hear from you. I agree that simply saying you should be in love before you have sex has opened the flood gates. Since love in middle school is all about brain trickery, the message must be tied to something real, like responsibility and safety.
 

Dr. Throckmorton: has NARTH responded in any way to your objections to Narth adviser's Schoenewolf article? In the article, Schoenewolf says

"With all due respect, there is another way, or other ways, to look at the race issue in America. It could be pointed out, for example, that Africa at the time of slavery was still primarily a jungle, as yet uncivilized or industrialized. Life there was savage, as savage as the jungle for most people, and that it was the Africans themselves who first enslaved their own people. They sold their own people to other countries, and those brought to Europe, South America, America, and other countries, were in many ways better off than they had been in Africa. But if one even begins to say these things one is quickly shouted down as though one were a complete madman."
 

Anon - I do not have an update at this time.
 

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Unfortunately, "Dr." Schoenwolf doesn't know the history of Africa's great empires back then, like the Mali, the Songhai, and the Niger that flourished western Africa. It went really well until the savage Europeans use their maxim guns in Nigeria