Tuesday, July 25, 2006
Michael Bussee speaks out about Exodus
Recently Michael Bussee and I have been getting acquainted over emails. He recently read my article regarding the founding of Exodus and took exception to my reporting. As I indicated to Mr. Bussee, I interviewed all of the other formerly gay members of the original board and reported what they told me. Mr. Bussee concedes that he was not one of two co-founders of Exodus but that there were others. However, as noted below, he does consider Mr. Cooper a co-founder as defined by the general word, found. The emails are pretty lengthy so I will only reproduce parts of them that Mr. Bussee permitted me to post. I feel it is fair to provide him with an opportunity to air his perspective.
On Gary Cooper as Founder of Exodus
Michael Bussee: "I just looked up "found" in the American Heritage College Thesaurus, since your wrote in you original posting that Gary "could not be considered a founder in any reasonable sense of the word." The thesaurus offers these equivalents: establish, institute, ORGANIZE, SETUP, and start. A founder is "one who founds, creates or starts up." I did NOT use the word incorrectly or deceptively as you assert when I described Gary's role. He helped do ALL of these things. It says nothing of being an "official" or member of any "board." If he was, I would have said that. I suppose I could have said "organizer" or"coordinator" -- but even THAT would have been attacked by those who deceptively use the term "ex-gay" to lure in new clients."
My comment: I don't see the term ex-gay as deceptive but not as descriptive as many would like it to be. The term gay is a socially constructed term that has no meaning about sexuality other than what the culture gives it. Given that gay is a socio-political label, then to say I once was gay and am not now, say more about your former identity than your inner life. Michael expands more on this below.
On the term ex-gay
"Ex-gay" was literally "voted in" at the first conference -- and it caused dissention even then among the conference attendees. (Ask some of the other "founders" and they may remember the debate.) Some thought"ex-gay was misleading. I agree. They suggested "celibate homosexual Christians". Some suggested "recovering Gay Christians). I forget some of the other more creative labels suggested.The majority of conference attendees SETTLED on "ex-gay" to represent the FAITH that one COULD (with God's help) change over TIME. This was in keeping with the "name-it-and-claim-it" school of thought that was so prominent during the neo-Pentecostal movement of the time. It wasn't what we WERE -- it was what we WANTED to BECOME. Currently, I use the word gay as synonymous with "homosexual." For others, it conjures up an image of a particular "lifestyle" (usually one of no personal restraint or moral value). Others use the term "gay" to denote belonging to a subculture. I suggest we do AWAY with the "ex-gay" term ENTIRELY since MOST in the general public would (rightly) assume that is means "no longer attracted to the same sex" -- which even your side admits is NOT true for the vast majority who seek "help."
My comment: Who knows if the vast majority lose their SSA or not? We really are talking about degrees here. Some do and some don't. Until controlled follow-up research is published it is kind of an open question.
What Gary Cooper did for Exodus
He and I were TWO of the original co-founders. I have NEVER claimed that we were the ONLY ones. You are INCORRECT when you assert that Gary Cooper cannot be considered in any way to be a co-founder of EXODUS! Were you there? I WAS there -- and I KNOW how hard Gary worked to create EXODUS. Did you come up with the idea of getting the various ministries together in the first place? Gary, another co-worker and I DID. Did YOU spend hours and HOURS (and many late nights) setting up the conference? Gary did. Did you help compile the extensive mailing list that resulted from that first conference? Gary did. Did you help devise the workshops and printed materials for that first conference? Gary did. Did you answer the phones, mail out articles and information packets during those first years of EXODUS when Melodyland was the EXODUS headquarters? Did you print and mail the newsletter? Gary did. Did you provide hours of phone and in-person counseling at EXODUS during those early years? Gary did. Did you go on many speaking engagements promoting EXODUS programs and services? Gary did.
My comment: By this account, Mr. Cooper did much to get Exodus going. I wanted to post this because I think some of the pain comes from the perception of a denial of Cooper's investment in the early stages of ex-gay ministry. While I think it is misleading to call Mr. Cooper a co-founder in the formal, organizational sense, I apologize for creating any impression that he was not there or uninvolved. Apparently, Mr. Cooper preferred a more behind-the-scenes role which may be, according to Mr. Bussee, why few others knew his importance.
Who were the other founders?
Others served on the Board, ran their individual ministries and did their part in furthering EXODUS's mission. The "original" group (we didn't use the word "founders") of 7 - 8 persons -- including Frank Worthen, Robbi Kenney, Ed Hurst, Ron Dennis, Greg Reid, Jim Kaspar (I pray I have not forgotten someone) -- all of us (I am sad to say) played important roles in EXODUS's formation and growth.
My comment: Mr. Bussee has this to say about the movie and claims that they were the two co-founders of Exodus: "In spite of what any captions (which were added by the film-makers years AFTER Gary and I were interviewed) may seem to say, I NEVER said (and will NEVER claim) that we were the ONLY ones." After reviewing the video, he is on target. He said that they were two of the original founders of Exodus. The captions made it appear that they were THE two founders.
Ok, so there were other founders. Everybody who was there now agrees. That may about all they would agree about but that much seems clear. Recently, Alan Chambers said in an Exodus newsletter that there were 62 founders in the sense that 62 people came together at the first conference which led to the current organization. What is clear is that this was more a movement in the beginning than an organization and as such it is misleading to say that any two people founded that movement.
On Gary Cooper as Founder of Exodus
Michael Bussee: "I just looked up "found" in the American Heritage College Thesaurus, since your wrote in you original posting that Gary "could not be considered a founder in any reasonable sense of the word." The thesaurus offers these equivalents: establish, institute, ORGANIZE, SETUP, and start. A founder is "one who founds, creates or starts up." I did NOT use the word incorrectly or deceptively as you assert when I described Gary's role. He helped do ALL of these things. It says nothing of being an "official" or member of any "board." If he was, I would have said that. I suppose I could have said "organizer" or"coordinator" -- but even THAT would have been attacked by those who deceptively use the term "ex-gay" to lure in new clients."
My comment: I don't see the term ex-gay as deceptive but not as descriptive as many would like it to be. The term gay is a socially constructed term that has no meaning about sexuality other than what the culture gives it. Given that gay is a socio-political label, then to say I once was gay and am not now, say more about your former identity than your inner life. Michael expands more on this below.
On the term ex-gay
"Ex-gay" was literally "voted in" at the first conference -- and it caused dissention even then among the conference attendees. (Ask some of the other "founders" and they may remember the debate.) Some thought"ex-gay was misleading. I agree. They suggested "celibate homosexual Christians". Some suggested "recovering Gay Christians). I forget some of the other more creative labels suggested.The majority of conference attendees SETTLED on "ex-gay" to represent the FAITH that one COULD (with God's help) change over TIME. This was in keeping with the "name-it-and-claim-it" school of thought that was so prominent during the neo-Pentecostal movement of the time. It wasn't what we WERE -- it was what we WANTED to BECOME. Currently, I use the word gay as synonymous with "homosexual." For others, it conjures up an image of a particular "lifestyle" (usually one of no personal restraint or moral value). Others use the term "gay" to denote belonging to a subculture. I suggest we do AWAY with the "ex-gay" term ENTIRELY since MOST in the general public would (rightly) assume that is means "no longer attracted to the same sex" -- which even your side admits is NOT true for the vast majority who seek "help."
My comment: Who knows if the vast majority lose their SSA or not? We really are talking about degrees here. Some do and some don't. Until controlled follow-up research is published it is kind of an open question.
What Gary Cooper did for Exodus
He and I were TWO of the original co-founders. I have NEVER claimed that we were the ONLY ones. You are INCORRECT when you assert that Gary Cooper cannot be considered in any way to be a co-founder of EXODUS! Were you there? I WAS there -- and I KNOW how hard Gary worked to create EXODUS. Did you come up with the idea of getting the various ministries together in the first place? Gary, another co-worker and I DID. Did YOU spend hours and HOURS (and many late nights) setting up the conference? Gary did. Did you help compile the extensive mailing list that resulted from that first conference? Gary did. Did you help devise the workshops and printed materials for that first conference? Gary did. Did you answer the phones, mail out articles and information packets during those first years of EXODUS when Melodyland was the EXODUS headquarters? Did you print and mail the newsletter? Gary did. Did you provide hours of phone and in-person counseling at EXODUS during those early years? Gary did. Did you go on many speaking engagements promoting EXODUS programs and services? Gary did.
My comment: By this account, Mr. Cooper did much to get Exodus going. I wanted to post this because I think some of the pain comes from the perception of a denial of Cooper's investment in the early stages of ex-gay ministry. While I think it is misleading to call Mr. Cooper a co-founder in the formal, organizational sense, I apologize for creating any impression that he was not there or uninvolved. Apparently, Mr. Cooper preferred a more behind-the-scenes role which may be, according to Mr. Bussee, why few others knew his importance.
Who were the other founders?
Others served on the Board, ran their individual ministries and did their part in furthering EXODUS's mission. The "original" group (we didn't use the word "founders") of 7 - 8 persons -- including Frank Worthen, Robbi Kenney, Ed Hurst, Ron Dennis, Greg Reid, Jim Kaspar (I pray I have not forgotten someone) -- all of us (I am sad to say) played important roles in EXODUS's formation and growth.
My comment: Mr. Bussee has this to say about the movie and claims that they were the two co-founders of Exodus: "In spite of what any captions (which were added by the film-makers years AFTER Gary and I were interviewed) may seem to say, I NEVER said (and will NEVER claim) that we were the ONLY ones." After reviewing the video, he is on target. He said that they were two of the original founders of Exodus. The captions made it appear that they were THE two founders.
Ok, so there were other founders. Everybody who was there now agrees. That may about all they would agree about but that much seems clear. Recently, Alan Chambers said in an Exodus newsletter that there were 62 founders in the sense that 62 people came together at the first conference which led to the current organization. What is clear is that this was more a movement in the beginning than an organization and as such it is misleading to say that any two people founded that movement.
# posted by W. Throckmorton @ Tuesday, July 25, 2006 
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Good. At long last. I hope you email Exodus and tell them to stop referring to Frank Worthen as "the founder".
Or is that The Founder. Cannot remember :)
But, more sematic silliness....
The term gay is a socially constructed term that has no meaning about sexuality other than what the culture gives it. Given that gay is a socio-political label, then to say I once was gay and am not now, say more about your former identity than your inner life.
OK, so it, "gay", like all nouns are "socially constructed". A fancy way of saying "this is what we call them". We, now. Them, the people we are talking about.
But it has also has a meaning with that public: homosexually attracted. When Joe/Joan Public says "Oh, he's gay" we all know what that means. There have, of course, been any number of nouns to describe such people over the years.
But what are we meant to make of the word "exgay" when it is also clear that it is being promoted without any reference to that common meaning?
Is it therefore accurately descriptive, introducing a subtlty? Mere semantic silliness? Self delusion? Discomfort with having people know one is actually still homosexual?
I'd almost be willing to say that while "gay" is a noun in common use, "exgay" is more of an adjective -- as Bussee's explanation makes even more clear.
Or is that The Founder. Cannot remember :)
But, more sematic silliness....
The term gay is a socially constructed term that has no meaning about sexuality other than what the culture gives it. Given that gay is a socio-political label, then to say I once was gay and am not now, say more about your former identity than your inner life.
OK, so it, "gay", like all nouns are "socially constructed". A fancy way of saying "this is what we call them". We, now. Them, the people we are talking about.
But it has also has a meaning with that public: homosexually attracted. When Joe/Joan Public says "Oh, he's gay" we all know what that means. There have, of course, been any number of nouns to describe such people over the years.
But what are we meant to make of the word "exgay" when it is also clear that it is being promoted without any reference to that common meaning?
Is it therefore accurately descriptive, introducing a subtlty? Mere semantic silliness? Self delusion? Discomfort with having people know one is actually still homosexual?
I'd almost be willing to say that while "gay" is a noun in common use, "exgay" is more of an adjective -- as Bussee's explanation makes even more clear.
Thanks, Dr. Thorckmorton, for correcting yourself. I NEVER claimed that Gary Cooper and I were the ONLY "founders". You reviewed the film and agree that I was "on target".
Now, do the DECENT (Christian) thing and apologize for either (1)lying about me or (2) simply repeating what EXODUS had told you -- instead of checking the facts. While you are at it, please ask EXODUS to stop lying and do the same.
Michael Bussee, MFT
ONE of the original co-founders of EXODUS
Now, do the DECENT (Christian) thing and apologize for either (1)lying about me or (2) simply repeating what EXODUS had told you -- instead of checking the facts. While you are at it, please ask EXODUS to stop lying and do the same.
Michael Bussee, MFT
ONE of the original co-founders of EXODUS
# posted by 
: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 2:35:00 PM
: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 2:35:00 PM
Well, you try to do the right thing and...
1. I didn't lie. I reported what people told me. I can only report what people tell me since as you pointed out, I wasn't there. What you are saying isn't in disagreement, it adds to the picture.
2. Exodus didn't tell me what to write. I interviewed everyone but you (I asked around, I had no idea where you were). In a sense, however, I had your interview from the One Nation Under God video. I am now clear on what you say and what the video implies. I wonder if you are going to ask the filmmakers to change that? While you are at it, ask Wayne Besen to correct the impression that you and Cooper were the sole founders.
1. I didn't lie. I reported what people told me. I can only report what people tell me since as you pointed out, I wasn't there. What you are saying isn't in disagreement, it adds to the picture.
2. Exodus didn't tell me what to write. I interviewed everyone but you (I asked around, I had no idea where you were). In a sense, however, I had your interview from the One Nation Under God video. I am now clear on what you say and what the video implies. I wonder if you are going to ask the filmmakers to change that? While you are at it, ask Wayne Besen to correct the impression that you and Cooper were the sole founders.
Hold you horses!
I did not create this confusion and am now doing my best to clear it up -- starting with you and those who have tried so hard to discredit me.
I am in the process, right now, of contacting Wayne Besen and the film-makers about making the corrections.
Whether we were the ONLY co-founders or two of many (or how to define "founder") is not nearly as important as the confusion created by the misleading term "ex-gay" which EXODUS has used for years -- and which Gary and I were refuting in the first place.
I just got off the phone with Alan Chambers of EXODUS. He was sorry if anyone associated with EXODUS had implied that Gary and I were not honest about our roles.
Regarding the term "ex-gay", he gave me permission to quote him:
"We need to do away with the term entirely and make sure it's never used again."
Wow. He sounds like ME.
Michael Bussee MFT
I did not create this confusion and am now doing my best to clear it up -- starting with you and those who have tried so hard to discredit me.
I am in the process, right now, of contacting Wayne Besen and the film-makers about making the corrections.
Whether we were the ONLY co-founders or two of many (or how to define "founder") is not nearly as important as the confusion created by the misleading term "ex-gay" which EXODUS has used for years -- and which Gary and I were refuting in the first place.
I just got off the phone with Alan Chambers of EXODUS. He was sorry if anyone associated with EXODUS had implied that Gary and I were not honest about our roles.
Regarding the term "ex-gay", he gave me permission to quote him:
"We need to do away with the term entirely and make sure it's never used again."
Wow. He sounds like ME.
Michael Bussee MFT
# posted by : Wednesday, July 26, 2006 6:37:00 PM
: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 6:37:00 PM
Did go looking for this for you. Took awhile to piece toegther who I remembered were making the comments and worked out where it therefore must sit. Whatever.
And perhaps Alan Chambers needs read it too: given the fairly plain involvement of his predecessor -- and Frank Worthen -- in a deliberate attempt to minimise the founding roles of two men that Exodus later wished they'd never even heard of...
Enjoy.
And perhaps Alan Chambers needs read it too: given the fairly plain involvement of his predecessor -- and Frank Worthen -- in a deliberate attempt to minimise the founding roles of two men that Exodus later wished they'd never even heard of...
Enjoy.
Dr. THrockmorton:
I will review One Nation Under God today. If my memory serves me well, I believe that the caption says "co-founders of EXODUS", not "THE founders" or "the ONLY founders".
For Alan Chambers to suggest that ALL 62 attendees of the first conference were "founders" is just plain silly! Most of the people at the first conference just warmed their seats. Most of them were never heard from again.
In my mind, only a small hadful could rightly be called "founders" -- among them a straight woman and four men who were anything BUT "ex-gay" and who continued to act out their gay feelings.
EXODUS has been accusing me of deliberately mis-using words like "founders" -- which you now acknowledge as incorrect.
Meanwhile, for 30 years, EXODUS has stubbornly used the term "ex-gay" -- defending it, re-defining it -- and FINALLY the leader of EXODUS has said what I have been saying all along -- that the term should be "done away with entirely and never used again". It's about time.
I intend to make Alan Chambers' rejection of the term "ex-gay" VERY public. You and EXODUS have a lot of explaining to do.
Michael Bussee, MFT
I will review One Nation Under God today. If my memory serves me well, I believe that the caption says "co-founders of EXODUS", not "THE founders" or "the ONLY founders".
For Alan Chambers to suggest that ALL 62 attendees of the first conference were "founders" is just plain silly! Most of the people at the first conference just warmed their seats. Most of them were never heard from again.
In my mind, only a small hadful could rightly be called "founders" -- among them a straight woman and four men who were anything BUT "ex-gay" and who continued to act out their gay feelings.
EXODUS has been accusing me of deliberately mis-using words like "founders" -- which you now acknowledge as incorrect.
Meanwhile, for 30 years, EXODUS has stubbornly used the term "ex-gay" -- defending it, re-defining it -- and FINALLY the leader of EXODUS has said what I have been saying all along -- that the term should be "done away with entirely and never used again". It's about time.
I intend to make Alan Chambers' rejection of the term "ex-gay" VERY public. You and EXODUS have a lot of explaining to do.
Michael Bussee, MFT
# posted by : Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:05:00 PM
: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:05:00 PM
Founder - a person who founds or establishes some institution (Princeton WordNet). Michael, I am happy to provide you with an opportunity to tell your side of things. However, the debate over Foundingness has arisen in a context where critics have taken pains to portray you and Gary as the sole founders. Take that away and I don't think we would be talking about this. I think this is all fascinating because I love to understand things, and especially contextual matters.
four men who were anything BUT "ex-gay" and who continued to act out their gay feelings. This statement is not consistent with my research and the statements of the other men involved. A lot can happen in 30 years.
four men who were anything BUT "ex-gay" and who continued to act out their gay feelings. This statement is not consistent with my research and the statements of the other men involved. A lot can happen in 30 years.
Dr. Throckmorton:
It seems to me that YOU and EXODUS have "taken pains" to discredit me and Gary. I am responding to the half-truths YOU have been spreading. Quit blaming others.
Four men (among the original founders) DID continue to act on gay impulses. Gary is one. I am two. My co-worker at EXIT is three and Ed Hurst of Outpost Ministries is four.
You say you "asked around" to try to get in touch with me and to clarify my role and Gary's. Whom did you ask? Did you contact the film-makers? Evangelicals Concerned? Mel White? Did you search the internet?
I Strongly doubt it. I don't think you looked very hard at all. I think you repeated what my critics had told you and what you already WANTED to believe. Not very scholarly.
It seems to me that YOU and EXODUS have "taken pains" to discredit me and Gary. I am responding to the half-truths YOU have been spreading. Quit blaming others.
Four men (among the original founders) DID continue to act on gay impulses. Gary is one. I am two. My co-worker at EXIT is three and Ed Hurst of Outpost Ministries is four.
You say you "asked around" to try to get in touch with me and to clarify my role and Gary's. Whom did you ask? Did you contact the film-makers? Evangelicals Concerned? Mel White? Did you search the internet?
I Strongly doubt it. I don't think you looked very hard at all. I think you repeated what my critics had told you and what you already WANTED to believe. Not very scholarly.
# posted by : Thursday, July 27, 2006 2:47:00 PM
: Thursday, July 27, 2006 2:47:00 PM
Warren, if you enjoyed the last one you may bust something with this one.
Took longer to find... but please enjoy the words of Alan Chambers AND Bob Davies. I was also tickled over the headline that had Anita founding a ministry with a man she wouldn't even meet for another 15 years. Wow!
Surely calling someone a "co-founder" pales into insignificance when you've got someone willing to call you "the father of all this" does it not?
And why would Alan think this... probably because Frank told the story. One that hasn't changed in 10 years. We know he's that way about LIA/R too.
Perhaps that's also why Mike Haley tells it like it isn't
The Davies original is still on the current Exodus site too, now I've bothered looking. The ending comments by Black give as good a clue as about what has really been occuring over the years -- now Bussee isn't even a former EXIT counselor. No, these days he's a former EXIT "counselor". Deliberate minimization after a lecture about not doing that...
I think most of us could forgive some blow-in reporter or their editor messing up "co-founders", "one of the founders", "a founder of" etc. Or some barely literate blogger skimming a few webpages and using "the founders".
But none of these people I've mentioned are blow-ins. They've all been involved for years. What they do have in common is a reliance on the history as told by one particular man.
Any guesses who?
Took longer to find... but please enjoy the words of Alan Chambers AND Bob Davies. I was also tickled over the headline that had Anita founding a ministry with a man she wouldn't even meet for another 15 years. Wow!
Surely calling someone a "co-founder" pales into insignificance when you've got someone willing to call you "the father of all this" does it not?
And why would Alan think this... probably because Frank told the story. One that hasn't changed in 10 years. We know he's that way about LIA/R too.
Perhaps that's also why Mike Haley tells it like it isn't
The Davies original is still on the current Exodus site too, now I've bothered looking. The ending comments by Black give as good a clue as about what has really been occuring over the years -- now Bussee isn't even a former EXIT counselor. No, these days he's a former EXIT "counselor". Deliberate minimization after a lecture about not doing that...
I think most of us could forgive some blow-in reporter or their editor messing up "co-founders", "one of the founders", "a founder of" etc. Or some barely literate blogger skimming a few webpages and using "the founders".
But none of these people I've mentioned are blow-ins. They've all been involved for years. What they do have in common is a reliance on the history as told by one particular man.
Any guesses who?
I just noticed that the EXODUS Global Alliance web page names Frank Worthen (who attended the first conference as a guest and who did NOT organize it) is named THE "founder" of EXODUS in 1976. No other person is mentioned.
After raking me over the coals and accusing me (online) of distorting the truth, are you now prepared to be just as tough on EXODUS?
I have serious doubts.
After raking me over the coals and accusing me (online) of distorting the truth, are you now prepared to be just as tough on EXODUS?
I have serious doubts.
# posted by : Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:08:00 PM
: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:08:00 PM
The point is: what are you going to do about it? If you have any integrity at all, you will take EXODUS to task as you did me.
# posted by : Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:20:00 PM
: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:20:00 PM
Thank you, Dr. Throckmorton.
I apologize.
You do seem to be a man of honor after all. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest and for giving me space on your blog.
Alan Chambers of EXODUS contacted me today and promised that the website will be changed. Thanks, Alan.
As for me, I am still trying to reach the film-makers and Wayne Besen to clear up any confusion they may have about the formation of EXODUS.
Finally, I am pleased to announce that Alan Chambers has asked me to join him for a joint press conference to officially RETIRE the misleading term "Ex-gay".
After 30 years, it's about time.
I apologize.
You do seem to be a man of honor after all. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest and for giving me space on your blog.
Alan Chambers of EXODUS contacted me today and promised that the website will be changed. Thanks, Alan.
As for me, I am still trying to reach the film-makers and Wayne Besen to clear up any confusion they may have about the formation of EXODUS.
Finally, I am pleased to announce that Alan Chambers has asked me to join him for a joint press conference to officially RETIRE the misleading term "Ex-gay".
After 30 years, it's about time.
# posted by : Friday, July 28, 2006 1:48:00 PM
: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:48:00 PM
Thanks, Michael. I think you have again made news on my blog. If ex-gay becomes passe' then I wonder what ExgayWatch will be called?
By the way, I never said we founded the "ex-gay" "movement", just that we were "two of the orginal founders of EXODUS". It is true that there were already a handful of "change ministries" (most notably, Love In Action) scattered across the country.
But there was no "EXODUS" -- no coaltion of these programs. WE (Jim, Gary and I) thought there should be. That is why Jim, Gary and I organized and convened that first EXODUS conference. No one else did it. It was named and (loosely) organiized at that conference You can't re-write history, Dr. Throckmorton -- even though you gave it the old college try.
I did speak with Wayne Besen, and, after some thought, I agree with him that those of us who organized and convened the first confernce are "founders" in the sense that we started it.
EXODUS itself says it began in 1976 at that Melodyland conference. It did not begin anywhere else. So we get the blame for "founding it", I guess.
What came AFTER is not my fault, thank God.
But there was no "EXODUS" -- no coaltion of these programs. WE (Jim, Gary and I) thought there should be. That is why Jim, Gary and I organized and convened that first EXODUS conference. No one else did it. It was named and (loosely) organiized at that conference You can't re-write history, Dr. Throckmorton -- even though you gave it the old college try.
I did speak with Wayne Besen, and, after some thought, I agree with him that those of us who organized and convened the first confernce are "founders" in the sense that we started it.
EXODUS itself says it began in 1976 at that Melodyland conference. It did not begin anywhere else. So we get the blame for "founding it", I guess.
What came AFTER is not my fault, thank God.
# posted by : Monday, July 31, 2006 8:00:00 PM
: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:00:00 PM
What I find interesting is that Warren did not come up with any new and revealing information to add to the historical record. What he is doing is repackaging old news. His thesis is:
1) Exodus had more than one founding board member.
2) There were more than Bussee and Cooper present at the first conference.
On the first count, this goes without saying. All legal entities have a board. This is not news.
On the second count, of course there were other people at the first conference. That is why it is called a "confeence."
The truth is, Exodus was the brainchild of Michael and Gary. They are the ones that said, "we need to build a train." They are the ones that organized the engineers to build the train. In the beginning they drove the train.
Of course, other people helped them, but to question that they founded Exodus is patently absurd.
Warren, when I grew up in East Texas, we had a saying for what you do: Shoveling 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag.
Now, please go do some real research and stop regurgitating and spinning old news.
1) Exodus had more than one founding board member.
2) There were more than Bussee and Cooper present at the first conference.
On the first count, this goes without saying. All legal entities have a board. This is not news.
On the second count, of course there were other people at the first conference. That is why it is called a "confeence."
The truth is, Exodus was the brainchild of Michael and Gary. They are the ones that said, "we need to build a train." They are the ones that organized the engineers to build the train. In the beginning they drove the train.
Of course, other people helped them, but to question that they founded Exodus is patently absurd.
Warren, when I grew up in East Texas, we had a saying for what you do: Shoveling 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag.
Now, please go do some real research and stop regurgitating and spinning old news.
You have such a way with words Wayne.
Now in Michael's post I count three people who had an idea: Jim, Gary and Michael. So are there 2 or 3 founding idea men?
Now in Michael's post I count three people who had an idea: Jim, Gary and Michael. So are there 2 or 3 founding idea men?
By Wayne's definition (which I think makes good sense logically), there would be three "founders" -- the ones who conceived, planned, organized and presented the first EXODUS conference -- and who manned the first EXODUS office for the year AFTER the conference. That would be me, Gary and Jim.
There was no "formal" founding of the organization. per se. We deliberately wanted to remain "a loose-knit coalition of ministries" to give each member agency its own identity and autonomy.
A Board was elected, but we only met once that year if I recall correctly. Jim, Gary and I were the only ones working the EXODUS office. It's OK with me if you want to refer to members of that first Board as "co-founders". The 62 delegates were just that -- guests.
To sum up, I NEVER claimed to be THE founder (as EXODUS cintinues to falsely claim Frank Worthen is). That title would rightly belong only to Jim, me and Gary.
There was no "formal" founding of the organization. per se. We deliberately wanted to remain "a loose-knit coalition of ministries" to give each member agency its own identity and autonomy.
A Board was elected, but we only met once that year if I recall correctly. Jim, Gary and I were the only ones working the EXODUS office. It's OK with me if you want to refer to members of that first Board as "co-founders". The 62 delegates were just that -- guests.
To sum up, I NEVER claimed to be THE founder (as EXODUS cintinues to falsely claim Frank Worthen is). That title would rightly belong only to Jim, me and Gary.
# posted by : Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:56:00 PM
: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:56:00 PM
Ed: Great to have you stop in and hope you will feel free to be a regular reader.
Appreciate your perspective. I am still catching up on some of the emails to see this issue in a broader light.
Appreciate your perspective. I am still catching up on some of the emails to see this issue in a broader light.
It does seem clear that Mike, Jim and Gary organized the first conference but it wasn't until the conference occurred that Exodus was organized. These guys could have planned a conference and then no formal structure evolved and then it would be just that a conference. What made Exodus was the initial group ministries that came together. If this did not happen there is no Exodus. The representatives of those ministries who came together on the first board agreed together to make an organization. Apparently all of them did but there had to be a group of people to actually organize the structure and plan for it to go.
Glad to see Ed's comments too.
(Should clarify for Ed though -- I'm not sure Warren intends this blog to "be" as it is at times. Sometimes can almost hear the gritted teeth cracking from clear from across the Pacific! Warren must have an appaling dentist bill, and not just because he has children...)
Was also very pleased to see you had also regarded "exgay" as an adjective rather than a noun. Michael Bussee said basically the same thing -- it's about what some people want to be, rather than what some people are.
OK, at least on that assessment our judgement wasn't too far off the mark. Or, at least it has other's also of a like mind.
Now... if we could only find a way to stop certain psychologists refering to "exgay" as a noun, even though they are at pains to claim that "gay" is not a noun :)
(Should clarify for Ed though -- I'm not sure Warren intends this blog to "be" as it is at times. Sometimes can almost hear the gritted teeth cracking from clear from across the Pacific! Warren must have an appaling dentist bill, and not just because he has children...)
Was also very pleased to see you had also regarded "exgay" as an adjective rather than a noun. Michael Bussee said basically the same thing -- it's about what some people want to be, rather than what some people are.
OK, at least on that assessment our judgement wasn't too far off the mark. Or, at least it has other's also of a like mind.
Now... if we could only find a way to stop certain psychologists refering to "exgay" as a noun, even though they are at pains to claim that "gay" is not a noun :)
Thanks Ed -- we do understand the difference between the "name it and claim it" side of religion and, well, frankly, what everyone else would see :) But thanks anyway.
Personally they could call themself "Napolean's Aunt" for all we care, at one level.
And a spiffy IBM Selectric???
My. Didn't you just out the age of yourself!
Personally they could call themself "Napolean's Aunt" for all we care, at one level.
And a spiffy IBM Selectric???
My. Didn't you just out the age of yourself!
I want to thank Ed Hurst -- who unlike, Dr., T. WAS involved with EXODUS very early in its history and didn't just "ask around" to confirm his own assumptions. Thanks, Ed, for clearing up that Dr. T. was DEAD WRONG when he boldly asserted that Gary and I were not "co-founders" of EXODUS and strongly implied that we were lying about our roles.
It helps to hear EXODUS' history told by someone who KNOWS. Thanks, Ed. I wish you well.
Dr. T., on the other hand, seems to want to keep splitting hairs to prove some point -- that there was no EXODUS until it was "organized".
It WAS "organized" at that first conference in 1976 -- that's why we say it was "founded" in 1976. Even Alan Chambers, EXODUS's current President, agrees with this. It's a FACT whether Dr. T. likes it or not.
In terms of "organization", here's what happened: the Board was elected at the FIRST conference. Our basic objectives were identified. EXODUS was named, by a majority vote, at that first conference. A mailing list was established. EXODUS's first office was chosen (the old EXIT office)and new phone lines were installed shortly thereafter.
We set tentative times and dates for our first board meeting and second conference. We discussed and voted on other issues, including the term "ex-gay".
In short. we conducted EXODUS's first "official business" before the confernce was ever adjourned. We FOUNDED it.
EXODUS, as an organization, existed before the first delegates got home. By any reasonable person's definition, it was "founded" in Anaheim in 1976. PERIOD.
In addition to coordinating the first conference, I was also on the first board and attended the Board meeting and 2nd conference (in Oakland CA, so I am a "founder" either way.
EXODUS wasn't "organized" in a "formal sense" (as Dr. T. calls it) for some time -- a process that took several YEARS. In truth, we didn't really want it "organized", per se. We deliberately designed EXODUS as "a loose-kint coalition of ministries" and hoped it would STAY that way. Alas, it didn't.
Ed Hurst can verify what I am saying, can't you Ed?
Dr. T. seems bound and determined to undermine what I am saying here, but he can't change the FACTS.
It helps to hear EXODUS' history told by someone who KNOWS. Thanks, Ed. I wish you well.
Dr. T., on the other hand, seems to want to keep splitting hairs to prove some point -- that there was no EXODUS until it was "organized".
It WAS "organized" at that first conference in 1976 -- that's why we say it was "founded" in 1976. Even Alan Chambers, EXODUS's current President, agrees with this. It's a FACT whether Dr. T. likes it or not.
In terms of "organization", here's what happened: the Board was elected at the FIRST conference. Our basic objectives were identified. EXODUS was named, by a majority vote, at that first conference. A mailing list was established. EXODUS's first office was chosen (the old EXIT office)and new phone lines were installed shortly thereafter.
We set tentative times and dates for our first board meeting and second conference. We discussed and voted on other issues, including the term "ex-gay".
In short. we conducted EXODUS's first "official business" before the confernce was ever adjourned. We FOUNDED it.
EXODUS, as an organization, existed before the first delegates got home. By any reasonable person's definition, it was "founded" in Anaheim in 1976. PERIOD.
In addition to coordinating the first conference, I was also on the first board and attended the Board meeting and 2nd conference (in Oakland CA, so I am a "founder" either way.
EXODUS wasn't "organized" in a "formal sense" (as Dr. T. calls it) for some time -- a process that took several YEARS. In truth, we didn't really want it "organized", per se. We deliberately designed EXODUS as "a loose-kint coalition of ministries" and hoped it would STAY that way. Alas, it didn't.
Ed Hurst can verify what I am saying, can't you Ed?
Dr. T. seems bound and determined to undermine what I am saying here, but he can't change the FACTS.
# posted by : Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:44:00 PM
: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:44:00 PM
For the record, I was there at Anaheim. I provided the name EXODUS. I don't recall ever meeting Gary personally, but have no problem believing he helped prep the conference. All of my founder-board-leadership contact was with Jim and Mike up til the point they left. EXIT stood for Ex-gay Intervention Team, and I think we all thought Mike and Jim very clever at thinking it up. Ex-gay was a peg to hang our hats, but us at OUTPOST eventually went on to use the phrase "from a homosexual (or gay) background) in the shimmy to avoid labeling. I incorporated EXODUS out of Minnesota in 1979, I think, and ran the org from my desk at OUTPOST until Greg Reid assumed the presidency of the board and asked for all the original paperwork. I think that was by the Johnstown conference, but I don't remember any more.
Mike, you there? Shoot me an email. -- Robbi (rlk@rlkenney.com)
Mike, you there? Shoot me an email. -- Robbi (rlk@rlkenney.com)
# posted by : Thursday, August 03, 2006 6:48:00 PM
: Thursday, August 03, 2006 6:48:00 PM
Nice to have Robbi on board for a read and a write. Welcome! I got in contact with Robbi and have been chatting with her and Ed and others so I can get all sides of this. I never did say that Mike wasn't a founder and my questions about Gary have to do with how would define the term. At this point, I am glad to have the folks who were on the scene talk about it. I am learning a lot.
WOW, what a great representation of early Exodus. Ed, Robbi, Mike, thanks for all of this information. I love history and I want to make sure what we have is accurate.
It was so ironic that Michael called me out of the blue last week as my staff and I were in that very moment going through boxes of old photos--there were so many of the three of you along with Ran, Greg and Frank. I wish you all were here to point out others who I do not recognize.
We are actually framing 8 x 10's we have of the first 3 conferences.
I would be grateful if the three of you and anyone else from the early days would email me personally: achambers@exodus.to.
Very Best,
Alan Chambers
It was so ironic that Michael called me out of the blue last week as my staff and I were in that very moment going through boxes of old photos--there were so many of the three of you along with Ran, Greg and Frank. I wish you all were here to point out others who I do not recognize.
We are actually framing 8 x 10's we have of the first 3 conferences.
I would be grateful if the three of you and anyone else from the early days would email me personally: achambers@exodus.to.
Very Best,
Alan Chambers
# posted by : Friday, August 04, 2006 9:48:00 AM
: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:48:00 AM
Wow!!! Hi Robbi. Hi Ed. How fun is this?
Looks like we are having a EXODUS oldtimers reunion or something. Maybe the three of us (could we also get Frank, Ron, Jim, Greg?) could agree to become "EXODUS ELDERS" -- and be available to answer questions about its early history -- since there has been so much misinformation splashed across the internet.
I will email you, Robbi. I am so relieved to hear that you are doing OK, Ed. You have been in my prayers for these past few years.
In the midst of all thiss discussion, what readers may not know is that we were all FRIENDS and brothers and sisters in Christ FIRST -- not just EXODUS leaders.
It's been a LONG time, huh?
Looks like we are having a EXODUS oldtimers reunion or something. Maybe the three of us (could we also get Frank, Ron, Jim, Greg?) could agree to become "EXODUS ELDERS" -- and be available to answer questions about its early history -- since there has been so much misinformation splashed across the internet.
I will email you, Robbi. I am so relieved to hear that you are doing OK, Ed. You have been in my prayers for these past few years.
In the midst of all thiss discussion, what readers may not know is that we were all FRIENDS and brothers and sisters in Christ FIRST -- not just EXODUS leaders.
It's been a LONG time, huh?
# posted by : Friday, August 04, 2006 12:05:00 PM
: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:05:00 PM
Robbi, Ed -- sorry -- the post above was from me. I accidentally pushed "anonymous". (My eyesight is failinig me...)
# posted by : Friday, August 04, 2006 1:48:00 PM
: Friday, August 04, 2006 1:48:00 PM
Ironic, isn't it? After all these (30) years, here I go again, trying to "found", "coordinate", "establish" or "create" a "loose-knit coalition" of persons interested in the "ex-gay" issue -- EXODUS ELDERS.
Deja VU!!!
Can't help myself. I must have the "founding" gene or something.
Thanks, Warren, for helping me to make contact with my old (sorry Robbi) EXODUS friends. If only for having the chance to say HI to them again, this has all been worth it.
Deja VU!!!
Can't help myself. I must have the "founding" gene or something.
Thanks, Warren, for helping me to make contact with my old (sorry Robbi) EXODUS friends. If only for having the chance to say HI to them again, this has all been worth it.
# posted by : Friday, August 04, 2006 4:08:00 PM
: Friday, August 04, 2006 4:08:00 PM
You have really challenged my thinking, Dr. T, -- and I think I have had a bit of a revelation: We didn't "found" EXODUS. We WISHED it. (By "we" I mean evryone who attended that first meeting in 1976.)
You have to understand the context. It was not a mistake that EXODUS started at Melodyland. Meoldyland was one part tent revival meeting and one part broadway musical. (Ironic that the choir director now conduts the Gay Men's Chorus of Orange County,)
There were uge "healing" services, lavish musical bumbers and stunning testimonies. It was alive with the energy of the Jesus Movement and Neo-pentacostalism.
Every day we heard of "ex" drug addicts and "ex" prostitutes and "ex" gang members.
I mean no mockery. I have no doubt that many physical, emotional and spiritual healiings took place there.
"We" (the ones who came to EXODUS 1) wanted that too. In fact, we wanted three things:
(1) We wanted to know that God loved us,
(2) We wanted to know that there were others like us,
(3) We wanted those damn gay feelings to go away.
We WISHED it would happen. That's what "ex-gay" meant. As Joe Dallas of EXODUS explained it so well, we were "Christians with homoseuxal tendencies who would rather not have those tendencies."
Pay attention to thos words "rather not have".
We got numbers 1 and 2. We know that Jesus loves us and we know we are not alone. But we are still Christians with homosexual tendencies, no matter what else we call ourselves.
You have to understand the context. It was not a mistake that EXODUS started at Melodyland. Meoldyland was one part tent revival meeting and one part broadway musical. (Ironic that the choir director now conduts the Gay Men's Chorus of Orange County,)
There were uge "healing" services, lavish musical bumbers and stunning testimonies. It was alive with the energy of the Jesus Movement and Neo-pentacostalism.
Every day we heard of "ex" drug addicts and "ex" prostitutes and "ex" gang members.
I mean no mockery. I have no doubt that many physical, emotional and spiritual healiings took place there.
"We" (the ones who came to EXODUS 1) wanted that too. In fact, we wanted three things:
(1) We wanted to know that God loved us,
(2) We wanted to know that there were others like us,
(3) We wanted those damn gay feelings to go away.
We WISHED it would happen. That's what "ex-gay" meant. As Joe Dallas of EXODUS explained it so well, we were "Christians with homoseuxal tendencies who would rather not have those tendencies."
Pay attention to thos words "rather not have".
We got numbers 1 and 2. We know that Jesus loves us and we know we are not alone. But we are still Christians with homosexual tendencies, no matter what else we call ourselves.
# posted by : Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:17:00 PM
: Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:17:00 PM
Here's the bottom line for me: EXODUS believes two things:
(1) All homosexual behavior is sin and that folks who continue such behavior are going to Hell,
(2) Homosexuality is some sort of psychological disorder or illness that can and should be treated.
I strongly disagree with BOTH.
Of course, people have a RIGHT to try to change their sexual orientation and to try to resist acting on their gay feelings. I have NEVER said otherwise.
I just think it is terribly sad that they feel compelled to try.
(1) All homosexual behavior is sin and that folks who continue such behavior are going to Hell,
(2) Homosexuality is some sort of psychological disorder or illness that can and should be treated.
I strongly disagree with BOTH.
Of course, people have a RIGHT to try to change their sexual orientation and to try to resist acting on their gay feelings. I have NEVER said otherwise.
I just think it is terribly sad that they feel compelled to try.
# posted by : Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:50:00 AM
: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:50:00 AM
Well said, Ed. That IS the essential difference. EXODUS believes it's sin. I don't. EXODUS believes it's a disorder. I don't.
I am NOT a member of any "gay church". Actually,I'm a Southern Baptist turned Presbyterian. I am not part of MCC. I came to this conclusion through a lot of study, thought, prayer, tears and careful reflection. I have spent 53 years of my life coming to this position -- just as I am sure you have not taken your position lightly.
Yes, I MAY be wrong -- just as YOU may be wrong. Genuine born-again Christisns (like us) can (and do) disagree on this and still believe that Christ is Lord.
I am NOT a member of any "gay church". Actually,I'm a Southern Baptist turned Presbyterian. I am not part of MCC. I came to this conclusion through a lot of study, thought, prayer, tears and careful reflection. I have spent 53 years of my life coming to this position -- just as I am sure you have not taken your position lightly.
Yes, I MAY be wrong -- just as YOU may be wrong. Genuine born-again Christisns (like us) can (and do) disagree on this and still believe that Christ is Lord.
# posted by : Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:06:00 AM
: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:06:00 AM
I just finished watching the movie “One Nation Under God” last night and, you know, I could care less who founded what in this absurd organization. What matters the most to me and to everyone else is what Bussee and Cooper did and that was to further confuse, stigmatize and castigate gay and lesbian people and lend credence to charlatans and pseudo-science all in the name of their self-hatred and fear. By the time they actually "came out" again, how many lives had they damaged and maybe even helped destroy? If I were them, I certainly wouldn't be bragging or arguing such inane points around who was responsible for "founding" something based on such hate-filled rhetoric, out-right lies and hypocrisy. Speaking of discredit, he, Cooper and the rest of these hypocrites discredited themselves a long time ago. If Bussee really believes in a Christian God and a judgment day then he will have a lot to explain when he stands before the eternal judge that he still markets so fervently and, who, according to the majority of his other Christian brethren, will still condemn him to hell for being a homosexual. How self-defeating can one actually be? The only really amazing thing is that people like him and Cooper walk(ed) around every day without the benefit of vertebrae.
# posted by : Wednesday, September 19, 2007 5:07:00 PM
: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 5:07:00 PM
Having looked at the scientific evidence I have noticed that most misuse of scientific evidence in on the pro-gay side. I am now dealing as a counsellor with people who have been through gay affirmative therapy and have been driven to deep depression and even in one case a suicide attempt. Should I start an organisation called ex-pro-gay cataloguing the abuses done in the name of political correctness? Would Michael Bussbee and others like to advise?
The pro gay and ex-ex-gay movement have a lot of explaining - miss quoting of gene research, research by Le Vay, I could go on. But would it halp any ones cause to throw stones in the way some people are doing.
As someone with many gay friends most feel stigmatised by the gay community. They feel trapped between the pro-gay propaganda and conservative condemnation. They don't feel stigmatised by groups like Exodus because they don't see gay as an identity - but many are scientists and have read the scientific evidence for themselves and don't believe they are born gay because all the evidence says biology is a minor factor. The gay community fails them but does nothing because of a politically motivated agenda which certain ex-ex-gay leaders have bought into by following their flesh.
The pro gay and ex-ex-gay movement have a lot of explaining - miss quoting of gene research, research by Le Vay, I could go on. But would it halp any ones cause to throw stones in the way some people are doing.
As someone with many gay friends most feel stigmatised by the gay community. They feel trapped between the pro-gay propaganda and conservative condemnation. They don't feel stigmatised by groups like Exodus because they don't see gay as an identity - but many are scientists and have read the scientific evidence for themselves and don't believe they are born gay because all the evidence says biology is a minor factor. The gay community fails them but does nothing because of a politically motivated agenda which certain ex-ex-gay leaders have bought into by following their flesh.
whew! what an intense ping-pong match of semantics! i'm tired just reading it.
Back in 1978 i went out to Melodyland and interviewed Michael Bussee regarding Exodus. i planned to write an article for a Milwaukee paper.
At the time of the interview i was already a "saved" and born again Christian. i was also unappologetically gay.
i guess something i want to interject after more than thirty years of intense study of comparative religions is that i have come to the conclusion that all religion is a mass delusion that leads to hatred and destruction. My suggestion is that rather allowing yourself to be continuously endrenched in beliefs that lead to both self-hatred and the prejudicial hatred of others you go beyond the narrow mythologic tales and study real life, devoid of these mythic delusions. It's much more enriching than the narrow scope we often allow ourselves to be entrapped in.
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Back in 1978 i went out to Melodyland and interviewed Michael Bussee regarding Exodus. i planned to write an article for a Milwaukee paper.
At the time of the interview i was already a "saved" and born again Christian. i was also unappologetically gay.
i guess something i want to interject after more than thirty years of intense study of comparative religions is that i have come to the conclusion that all religion is a mass delusion that leads to hatred and destruction. My suggestion is that rather allowing yourself to be continuously endrenched in beliefs that lead to both self-hatred and the prejudicial hatred of others you go beyond the narrow mythologic tales and study real life, devoid of these mythic delusions. It's much more enriching than the narrow scope we often allow ourselves to be entrapped in.
# posted by : Friday, November 20, 2009 2:29:00 AM
: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:29:00 AM << Home
