Tuesday, May 23, 2006
CNN segment involving Richard Cohen
CNN, the Paula Zahn Now show (transcript), about a 6 minute clip, I was speechless for a few minutes afterwards. My wife and the rest of the sane people in the house were watching Idol. At last count, my daughter voted for Taylor 62 times.
Anyway, when my wife watched the clip (I taped it), she said she couldn't get past the "ick factor" to even evaluate what was said. We discussed which was the ickiest, the tennis racket slamming the pillow while screaming at mom; or the client-cuddle technique where Richard holds his client like a baby in a kind of nursing position. We couldn't decide.
I am reminded of a 1995 PBS Frontline documentary called Divided Memories. Part 1 of the documentary examines past-life therapy and Part 2 examines repressed memory therapy. The documentary crew was allowed to film "therapists" from the now defunct counseling group, Genesis & Associates. Genesis & Associates used something called Rage Work, that required clients to beat on pillows with bats while envisioning maltreatment from family members. Sound familiar? The two therapists who ran G&A lost their licenses and a significant malpractice action. I show Divided Memories to every intro to counseling class I teach. It is a powerful teaching tool about the proper role of therapy and the boundaries that are absolutely critical. Then we discuss why some people who were seeing the Genesis counselors described improvement. It is an amazing thing indeed how people can allow themselves to do something like Rage Work and still come away saying it was helpful. Well, at least at the time. One of the (at the time) satisfied customers on the video, later sued and as recently as 2004 described scars from her experience at Genesis.
I digress. The CNN segment focused mostly on Cohen and a current client. There were interviews with Jack Drescher and an ex-ex-gay. Drescher fudged a bit on the research but he didn't get much face time in the segment. I thought the ex-ex-gay was articulate. I think Deborah Feyerick did a good job of keeping her journalistic game face on during the pillow assault and client hugging.
During the segment, Richard was described as one of the leaders in the reparative therapy "movement." Did I mention that I am not a reparative therapist?
You can view the segment on the CNN website.
# posted by W. Throckmorton @ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 
Comments:
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Actually, a ref. to dear old Genesis & Ass. is most on topic...
It is an amazing thing indeed how people can allow themselves to do something like [that] and still come away saying it was helpful. Well, at least at the time.
Indeedy. Drescher's main point, most of the time, no?
Being more familiar with the manipulative techniques used by Cohen you prob. did get the ick factor. But most would not. CNN went very soft on Cohen -- at best we had Drescher say the rest of us don't do because it's dangerous.
But imagine anti-gay person sitting at home. Or even gay person. They hear CNN declare
He offers the theory that some kind of childhood trauma triggers
homosexuality. All it takes is figuring out what it is, healing from it and moving on.
And all this involves is some hugging and a few beatings of an inanimate object with a tennis racket. Hardly sounds dangerous does it? No mention of exactly why Cohen is "unlicensed".
And it all ends with "Rob" claiming to be this side of deliriously happy, and, jeez, it must work because now he's even chatting to women on-line!
The big ick factor was not the creepiness of Cohen per se. Perhaps we're now immune.
It was having a 42 year old man describe his mother -- a woman who suffered through a bad marriage -- as "emotional incest". Sheesh, grow up; if the poor woman leant on her kids for support and comfort it was because she probably needed to. (No mention, of course, of all that she may have shielded the children from. Or whether "Rob" is inventing the entire thing.) A mature adult son would accept, and move on with good grace.
"Emotional incest" -- nope, that's not "Rob" speaking. That's the manipulative Cohen getting his own jollies out of a dependant, ever immature, and readily persuaded client.
The infantile raging and the lap-top nursing are only the tip of that iceberg. It's a wonder he hasn't suggested a nappy and a dummy (sorry, diaper and pacifier).
(And, OK, you're not a Reparative Therapist. We get it. :) But what was the name of that organisation you worked with before, the one that Cohen heads?... and wish there was a "eye brows shooting up in a meaningful way" icon at this point)
It is an amazing thing indeed how people can allow themselves to do something like [that] and still come away saying it was helpful. Well, at least at the time.
Indeedy. Drescher's main point, most of the time, no?
Being more familiar with the manipulative techniques used by Cohen you prob. did get the ick factor. But most would not. CNN went very soft on Cohen -- at best we had Drescher say the rest of us don't do because it's dangerous.
But imagine anti-gay person sitting at home. Or even gay person. They hear CNN declare
He offers the theory that some kind of childhood trauma triggers
homosexuality. All it takes is figuring out what it is, healing from it and moving on.
And all this involves is some hugging and a few beatings of an inanimate object with a tennis racket. Hardly sounds dangerous does it? No mention of exactly why Cohen is "unlicensed".
And it all ends with "Rob" claiming to be this side of deliriously happy, and, jeez, it must work because now he's even chatting to women on-line!
The big ick factor was not the creepiness of Cohen per se. Perhaps we're now immune.
It was having a 42 year old man describe his mother -- a woman who suffered through a bad marriage -- as "emotional incest". Sheesh, grow up; if the poor woman leant on her kids for support and comfort it was because she probably needed to. (No mention, of course, of all that she may have shielded the children from. Or whether "Rob" is inventing the entire thing.) A mature adult son would accept, and move on with good grace.
"Emotional incest" -- nope, that's not "Rob" speaking. That's the manipulative Cohen getting his own jollies out of a dependant, ever immature, and readily persuaded client.
The infantile raging and the lap-top nursing are only the tip of that iceberg. It's a wonder he hasn't suggested a nappy and a dummy (sorry, diaper and pacifier).
(And, OK, you're not a Reparative Therapist. We get it. :) But what was the name of that organisation you worked with before, the one that Cohen heads?... and wish there was a "eye brows shooting up in a meaningful way" icon at this point)
Also agree that Feyerick did a magnificent job stifling whatever must have been bubbling up inside. The expression on the tennis photo is worth a million words.
Frankly, even if we thought it did work, we'd rather die old and gay than die young from embarrassment and humiliation!
Just trying to imagine Dad's face if his 42 year old son wanted to cuddle up on the couch. "Urgh, right, oo-kay... wouldn't you rather a beer and help me with the painting?"
Frankly, even if we thought it did work, we'd rather die old and gay than die young from embarrassment and humiliation!
Just trying to imagine Dad's face if his 42 year old son wanted to cuddle up on the couch. "Urgh, right, oo-kay... wouldn't you rather a beer and help me with the painting?"
Nope Warren, you've NEVER mentioned before that you're not a reparative therapist...
# posted by 
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:14:00 AM
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:14:00 AM
Nope, Warren just takes awards from reparative therapists, presents at reparative therapy conferences, and leads a reparative therapy email discussion list. Can't see why that might cause any confusion.
# posted by : Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:10:00 AM
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:10:00 AM
So who is Anon that knows so much about me?
Actually I was just booted off the NARTH listserv since I am not a member. Not sure what list I lead but you probably do.
Actually I was just booted off the NARTH listserv since I am not a member. Not sure what list I lead but you probably do.
I was given an award for my 2002 article. And I present there because there are reasonable people who also present there. For all of my disagreements with RT, the aim of constructing a valued identity is one I share with them. If there were standards or guidelines in place, this stuff would be excluded. The leadership are tepid toward our guidelines however. Many others who are involved at one level or another think the guidelines are needed.
"Actually I was just booted off the NARTH listserv since I am not a member."
Congratulations. I consider that to be a compliment to you, Warren.
While I have areas of disagreement with you, I do respect that you are unwilling to allign yourself completely with crackpots like Cohen. But aren't the two of you both still affiliated with PFOX?
Timothy Kincaid
Congratulations. I consider that to be a compliment to you, Warren.
While I have areas of disagreement with you, I do respect that you are unwilling to allign yourself completely with crackpots like Cohen. But aren't the two of you both still affiliated with PFOX?
Timothy Kincaid
# posted by : Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:09:00 PM
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:09:00 PM
I am a evangelical student
at Columbia Univeristy;I think
Richard Cohen is a bad image for the ex gay cause.
Richard Cohen showed that he has little understading of the liberal media.He should be banned from televison,he did great damage.
What is so sad is that the only image people left with was this guy hitting a pillow, and screaming.
Many people have left the
gay lifestyle but Richard Cohen's
performance on televison mocked there struggle!
Julie Spicer
at Columbia Univeristy;I think
Richard Cohen is a bad image for the ex gay cause.
Richard Cohen showed that he has little understading of the liberal media.He should be banned from televison,he did great damage.
What is so sad is that the only image people left with was this guy hitting a pillow, and screaming.
Many people have left the
gay lifestyle but Richard Cohen's
performance on televison mocked there struggle!
Julie Spicer
# posted by : Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:53:00 PM
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:53:00 PM
I don't mean to put Richard's methods down in any way b/c I'm sure his intentions are ligit, and I am sure that his methods worked for him and the others who say it worked.
However, my progress in dealing with SSA is not due to hitting a pillow with a tennis racket nor having someone hold me.
My progress in dealing with SSA is a result of giving my life to Christ, knowing that He knows my struggles and still loves me and forgives me, trusting Him and allowing Him to help me, strengthen me, assure me, love me, forgive me and comfort me.
Hitting a pillow and yelling out the name of the person(s) who may have hurt me is trusting that action to help me instead of trusting Him to help me.
Hitting a pillow cannot help me (us), screaming out the name of the person(s) who may have hurt me cannot help me.
Calling out to Him WILL help me, forgiving the person(s) who hurt me DOES help me.
Thus far I've come a long way from where I was and I owe it all to Him.
However, my progress in dealing with SSA is not due to hitting a pillow with a tennis racket nor having someone hold me.
My progress in dealing with SSA is a result of giving my life to Christ, knowing that He knows my struggles and still loves me and forgives me, trusting Him and allowing Him to help me, strengthen me, assure me, love me, forgive me and comfort me.
Hitting a pillow and yelling out the name of the person(s) who may have hurt me is trusting that action to help me instead of trusting Him to help me.
Hitting a pillow cannot help me (us), screaming out the name of the person(s) who may have hurt me cannot help me.
Calling out to Him WILL help me, forgiving the person(s) who hurt me DOES help me.
Thus far I've come a long way from where I was and I owe it all to Him.
# posted by : Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:38:00 PM
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:38:00 PM
Appreciate the comments about the guidelines. Following them would prevent the stuff we saw on CNN last night.
I have had clients who want me to hold them. I refuse and point them to the emotions that seem to prompt that request. I find a much better outcome from examining the desire to act-out feelings as opposed to figure them out and let that awareness assist them to chose valued action.
I used to do a lot of child therapy and we would do lots of active things. I didn't direct it though. If a kid wanted to yell and punch things I generally allowed a certain amount but always asked for the feelings to be put into words.
I know people who have done this kind of hugging and touching and holding, etc. and all that happens is that they feel gratified for a spell and then the "hunger" returns.
Give a man a fish and he is filled today. Teach a man to fish and he will be forever filled.
I have had clients who want me to hold them. I refuse and point them to the emotions that seem to prompt that request. I find a much better outcome from examining the desire to act-out feelings as opposed to figure them out and let that awareness assist them to chose valued action.
I used to do a lot of child therapy and we would do lots of active things. I didn't direct it though. If a kid wanted to yell and punch things I generally allowed a certain amount but always asked for the feelings to be put into words.
I know people who have done this kind of hugging and touching and holding, etc. and all that happens is that they feel gratified for a spell and then the "hunger" returns.
Give a man a fish and he is filled today. Teach a man to fish and he will be forever filled.
George:
Also, is there a place for healthy and safe touch therapy when treating unwanted same sex attraction. I appreciate your insights.
I can't envision a situation where the therapist should provide this. I spoke to this above.
Also, is there a place for healthy and safe touch therapy when treating unwanted same sex attraction. I appreciate your insights.
I can't envision a situation where the therapist should provide this. I spoke to this above.
Julie Spicer
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:53:29 PM
Richard Cohen showed that he has little understading of the liberal media.
No, he showed he has little understanding of therapeutic practices. The media (liberal or otherwise) merely allowed him to present his practices. I agree, though, it is quite sad that the president of PFOX is mocking ex-gays as you say.
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:53:29 PM
Richard Cohen showed that he has little understading of the liberal media.
No, he showed he has little understanding of therapeutic practices. The media (liberal or otherwise) merely allowed him to present his practices. I agree, though, it is quite sad that the president of PFOX is mocking ex-gays as you say.
# posted by : Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:55:00 PM
: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:55:00 PM
I agree...with all of you! LOL!
I'm such a suck up! LOL
Anyway...my husband has been involved in a bit of that "holding therapy" in the beginning of his journey toward diminishing his same sex attractions. I'm like Warren, in that, I know for a fact that it helped or comforted him for at least a short period of time but as far as it being an integral part of his journey toward "me" (me being opposite sex)attraction....uh....not so much.
I appreciate the discussion here!
love,
grace
I'm such a suck up! LOL
Anyway...my husband has been involved in a bit of that "holding therapy" in the beginning of his journey toward diminishing his same sex attractions. I'm like Warren, in that, I know for a fact that it helped or comforted him for at least a short period of time but as far as it being an integral part of his journey toward "me" (me being opposite sex)attraction....uh....not so much.
I appreciate the discussion here!
love,
grace
Richard Cohen is a disgrace. He's almost becoming a self parody. The Ex-Gay movement ought to pack up their bags and hit the road.
I think the future lies in your sexual identity therapy. Whether or not someone can really change their inner feelings is perhaps something that we may never be able to accurately answer, given the subjectivity and lack of strict criteria when it comes to reporting on those feelings. However, by moving away from trying to change inner feelings, to trying to integrate one's sexuality into a the worldview that one possesses, seems to be a much more pragmatic, and fruitful goal.
I used to think that feelings can indeed change. However, now I am not so sure. I used to have predominantly gay feelings, but now I have predominantly straight feelings, with short periods of time where the gay feelings increase temporarily.
Now, I have no idea if any change occured, or if that was perhaps the way that I always was ( born with a fluctuating orientation I.E. some form of bisexual?)
But I don't care, because whatever it is, my sexuality goes together nicely with my worldview and religious beliefs, and I've finally been able to integrate the two together.
Donni Vaughn
I think the future lies in your sexual identity therapy. Whether or not someone can really change their inner feelings is perhaps something that we may never be able to accurately answer, given the subjectivity and lack of strict criteria when it comes to reporting on those feelings. However, by moving away from trying to change inner feelings, to trying to integrate one's sexuality into a the worldview that one possesses, seems to be a much more pragmatic, and fruitful goal.
I used to think that feelings can indeed change. However, now I am not so sure. I used to have predominantly gay feelings, but now I have predominantly straight feelings, with short periods of time where the gay feelings increase temporarily.
Now, I have no idea if any change occured, or if that was perhaps the way that I always was ( born with a fluctuating orientation I.E. some form of bisexual?)
But I don't care, because whatever it is, my sexuality goes together nicely with my worldview and religious beliefs, and I've finally been able to integrate the two together.
Donni Vaughn
# posted by : Thursday, May 25, 2006 2:23:00 AM
: Thursday, May 25, 2006 2:23:00 AM
Donni: Well said. I do think long term change occurs but who knows how often? I am plodding along at a follow up on this question and I think there will be some additional data out on 2006 from a couple of sources. And we know from recent research that spontaneous change occurs. However, we attempt to locate sexual feelings within the context of the whole person. Sex is not an end in itself, it has a function. What it is for each person is subject to and informed by the unique aspects of that person.
What does fishing look like in this situation? Is it possible or desirable for two heterosexual males to have a physically and emotionally intimate relationship, without sex? Isn't this what Richard Cohen and others like him are advocating and teaching to men who struggle with SSA?
By fishing, I mean providing the skills to address hunger. By suggesting that you can go to therapy, cuddle with a therapist and then never feel hungry again is as silly as saying that there is a restaurant that serves food designed to reduce or eliminate future hunger for food. Emotional hunger is akin to physical hunger in that it functions to drive a person toward something. In the case of physical hunger, we are driven to eat. In the case of emotional hunger for touch or closeness or the sense of being known and loved, we are driven to find real relationship. I see a therapist giving it out as one way but not very satisfying and potentially fraught with major problems for both the client and therapist. What if a client wants a midnight snack? Where does he go? What if the therapist decides he likes it too? And wants a midnight snack at the client's restaurant? (It's my blog so I can switch between explanation and analogies at will :)
The touch deprivation model has no empirical support that I can find. We all need touch; we all need held; we all need real connection. This is human.
The Genesis and Associates people that I refered to in a prior post made relationship addiction a disorder to be cured. They suggested detachment from all relationships to deal with the "co-dependency" (another made-up term for a disorder). The only relationships allowed were the therapists and the other group members. The only permanent cure for emotional hunger (need for connection) and touch deprivation is death. It is not going to a therapist and paying for a cuddle.
More later...
By fishing, I mean providing the skills to address hunger. By suggesting that you can go to therapy, cuddle with a therapist and then never feel hungry again is as silly as saying that there is a restaurant that serves food designed to reduce or eliminate future hunger for food. Emotional hunger is akin to physical hunger in that it functions to drive a person toward something. In the case of physical hunger, we are driven to eat. In the case of emotional hunger for touch or closeness or the sense of being known and loved, we are driven to find real relationship. I see a therapist giving it out as one way but not very satisfying and potentially fraught with major problems for both the client and therapist. What if a client wants a midnight snack? Where does he go? What if the therapist decides he likes it too? And wants a midnight snack at the client's restaurant? (It's my blog so I can switch between explanation and analogies at will :)
The touch deprivation model has no empirical support that I can find. We all need touch; we all need held; we all need real connection. This is human.
The Genesis and Associates people that I refered to in a prior post made relationship addiction a disorder to be cured. They suggested detachment from all relationships to deal with the "co-dependency" (another made-up term for a disorder). The only relationships allowed were the therapists and the other group members. The only permanent cure for emotional hunger (need for connection) and touch deprivation is death. It is not going to a therapist and paying for a cuddle.
More later...
# posted by : Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:32:00 AM
: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:32:00 AM
George said:
Taking into account healthy and ethical boundaries between a therapist and client, is it accurate to say that you see touch, holding, emotional connection etc . . . not as final destinations, but rather as potentially useful methods to helping a client achieve healthy emotional self-care?
Touch should not come from the therapist as a therapeutic tool. Encouraging words, words of support and perspective, yes. Touch no. Should the therapist assist the client to make healthy connection with real relationships? Yes, absolutely. Some clients resist this; they want the counselor to be the cuddle buddy. I disagree that any form of therapy can make this a technique.
I hope to write more about this later...
Taking into account healthy and ethical boundaries between a therapist and client, is it accurate to say that you see touch, holding, emotional connection etc . . . not as final destinations, but rather as potentially useful methods to helping a client achieve healthy emotional self-care?
Touch should not come from the therapist as a therapeutic tool. Encouraging words, words of support and perspective, yes. Touch no. Should the therapist assist the client to make healthy connection with real relationships? Yes, absolutely. Some clients resist this; they want the counselor to be the cuddle buddy. I disagree that any form of therapy can make this a technique.
I hope to write more about this later...
# posted by : Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:07:00 AM
: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:07:00 AM
A group could do that but I would take real care as a therapist that assumptions would not be made that the group is a cuddle puddle. Now in groups people hug and put hands on shoulders and the like. I am not referring to that. I am referring to groups where people just hold each other. All of this assumes that the desire to be held by someone is a feeling to be obeyed. The assumption is that this feeling or any feeling is an imperative. I feel x so I must do what it says. I feel bad so I must rid myself of this bad feeling by (fill in the blank). The value of therapy is in expanding options and psychological flexibility so that people can have pursue a valued life.
# posted by : Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:54:00 PM
: Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:54:00 PM
I disagree. Medications violate no boundaries, create actual physical changes in the body that correlate with mood states and an improvement in pathology. They are in some cases needed indefinitely (e.g., bipolar, chronic depression, psychotic conditions). Holding addresses no underlying pathology. It is not sick to want to be touched. I confess I am addicted to people. I am addicted to warm human contact. Just like I am addicted to food. I may need a nutritionist to teach me how to eat well and I may need a therapist to learn how to attach and relate well but I am not going to dine in the nutritionist's office.
When clients are leading disordered lives (cruising, promiscuous, etc.), they do not need the therapist to act out their feelings, they need to understand them and reframe them.
Client: I want to go engage in restroom sex.
Me: Is that a command or a feeling?
Client: A feeling
Me: Will it take you closer to your valued life or farther away?
Client: Farther away.
Me: What will happen if you are not bullied by this feeling? What is the feeling trying to get you to do? What would you tell this feeling if it were a voice coming from a person standing next to me?
And so on.
When clients are leading disordered lives (cruising, promiscuous, etc.), they do not need the therapist to act out their feelings, they need to understand them and reframe them.
Client: I want to go engage in restroom sex.
Me: Is that a command or a feeling?
Client: A feeling
Me: Will it take you closer to your valued life or farther away?
Client: Farther away.
Me: What will happen if you are not bullied by this feeling? What is the feeling trying to get you to do? What would you tell this feeling if it were a voice coming from a person standing next to me?
And so on.
PS - In that light, if healthy holding gives a client temporary relief, and sets him up for greater wholeness,
You would have to demonstrate that this is true. Think of the trials drugs go through to see the light of day. Has anyone evaluated touch therapies in mental health for SSA in anywhere close to the way drugs are evaluated? I think you know the answer :)
You would have to demonstrate that this is true. Think of the trials drugs go through to see the light of day. Has anyone evaluated touch therapies in mental health for SSA in anywhere close to the way drugs are evaluated? I think you know the answer :)
While I have areas of disagreement with you, I do respect that you are unwilling to allign yourself completely with crackpots like Cohen. But aren't the two of you both still affiliated with PFOX?
Not any longer. He is president of PFOX.
Not any longer. He is president of PFOX.
# posted by : Thursday, May 25, 2006 1:53:00 PM
: Thursday, May 25, 2006 1:53:00 PM
I think it is a mistake however to avoid the subject because some might impose "sexual" judgments on healthy same sex intimacy.
That's not the entire reason why, as I have outlined. And I don't see me avoiding the subject. I don't think a therapist gratifying a client's wish to be held like a baby is health same sex intimacy. Same thing for opposite sex therapist-client dyads.
That's not the entire reason why, as I have outlined. And I don't see me avoiding the subject. I don't think a therapist gratifying a client's wish to be held like a baby is health same sex intimacy. Same thing for opposite sex therapist-client dyads.
Elizabeth (we were sworn to only call her that and had to pay $1 every time we used anyother name)
This is a big red flag for me. The description of the experience sounds very much like indoctrination into a cult. I'm not arguing that 'Elizabeth' is a cult leader, but the idea of forcing people to call you by your first name instead of by your professional moniker (Dr So-and-So) seems to set up a strange dynamic.
For myself, I do not see how one experience of emotional release can replace years of working through unhelpful cognitive habits.
I admit, though, I was not in the situation, and it may have been helpful for the woman leaving the comment. My personal bias is towards cognitive behavior therapy, though.
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This is a big red flag for me. The description of the experience sounds very much like indoctrination into a cult. I'm not arguing that 'Elizabeth' is a cult leader, but the idea of forcing people to call you by your first name instead of by your professional moniker (Dr So-and-So) seems to set up a strange dynamic.
For myself, I do not see how one experience of emotional release can replace years of working through unhelpful cognitive habits.
I admit, though, I was not in the situation, and it may have been helpful for the woman leaving the comment. My personal bias is towards cognitive behavior therapy, though.
# posted by : Friday, May 26, 2006 2:20:00 PM
: Friday, May 26, 2006 2:20:00 PM << Home
