Saturday, July 16, 2005
Unbelievable: Some are trying to tie ex-gays to the Tampa murder of a toddler
I am beyond amazed. There is a story out of Tampa, FL that is sickening. A man boxed his three year old son to death to make sure he would not become a sissy. An aunt said he was afraid the boy would be gay. Florida "Protective Services" released the boy to the "parents" after obvious signs of abuse. The mother watched the boy being abused and did nothing. This is a tragic and incredibly nauseating story. I was involved in protecting kids like this in Portsmouth, Ohio when I was a consultant for the Protective Services there. So class, let's take a quiz.
Who is responsible for the death of this boy?
a. the father
b. the mother
c. Florida Protective Services
d. the ex-gay movement and reorientation therapists
If you are a reasonable person, you chose the father but could consider the mother and the Florida authorities accomplices. If you are the gay press, you picked d) the ex-gay movement.
Here is the "reasoning" - ex-gays tend to hold traditional views about gender and this man obviously had warped views of masculinity. Voila! It the ex-gays fault!
Because ex-gays do not want to be gay, the man accused of killing the boy had negative attitudes toward potential gayness in his son (the boy was three)? Because some reorientation therapists have traditional views of gender roles, the accused killer had these same views to the extreme and he set out to follow the teachings of the therapists? Incredible!
Now I do not understand something. These same people with their traditional views also believe this wise saying from the same source as those traditional beliefs: "do not provoke your children to wrath." Why didn't that rub off on the killer?
Let's be clear. Responsibility for this tragedy falls on both parents and the Florida Dept of "protective services." It is beyond shameful that anyone would use this awful situation to try to score political points.
Who is responsible for the death of this boy?
a. the father
b. the mother
c. Florida Protective Services
d. the ex-gay movement and reorientation therapists
If you are a reasonable person, you chose the father but could consider the mother and the Florida authorities accomplices. If you are the gay press, you picked d) the ex-gay movement.
Here is the "reasoning" - ex-gays tend to hold traditional views about gender and this man obviously had warped views of masculinity. Voila! It the ex-gays fault!
Because ex-gays do not want to be gay, the man accused of killing the boy had negative attitudes toward potential gayness in his son (the boy was three)? Because some reorientation therapists have traditional views of gender roles, the accused killer had these same views to the extreme and he set out to follow the teachings of the therapists? Incredible!
Now I do not understand something. These same people with their traditional views also believe this wise saying from the same source as those traditional beliefs: "do not provoke your children to wrath." Why didn't that rub off on the killer?
Let's be clear. Responsibility for this tragedy falls on both parents and the Florida Dept of "protective services." It is beyond shameful that anyone would use this awful situation to try to score political points.
# posted by W. Throckmorton @ Saturday, July 16, 2005 
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You're reaching here. If the "gay press" truly believed that the father was not ultimately responsible, it would at least mention the second-degree murder conviction that was handed down and decry it.
The only ones doing that are Paris' family, who are quoted as believing he's a good man and this is all the work of the devil.
This is the product of homophobia, and although this is a twisted, ghoulish version of it, its the same hatred that pours money into the collection plates of the Robertsons and the Falwells, and is the fuel that drives the loathing and self-hatred that results in the few successes the gay-change ministries are able to eek out.
Every time a sissy gets beaten, a Matthew Shepard gets strung up on a fence, or Fred Phelps finds a new target that gets him in the newspapers, you can expect not just the gay press to wonder aloud where this hate is coming from.
You can try to deflect it by making your enemies appear to say something they didn't, but this truth is resonating too widely to cover it up any more. People are getting hurt as a by-product of this hate too often to minimize it as some one-time aberration. The general public is starting to connect the dots, and coming to the conclusion that if this is the way religious people are telling them to act, then religious people lack the compassion that religion is supposed to be a prime source for.
I'd suggest you have another look at the article, particularly the last paragraph. It doesn't say what you're claiming it does.
The only ones doing that are Paris' family, who are quoted as believing he's a good man and this is all the work of the devil.
This is the product of homophobia, and although this is a twisted, ghoulish version of it, its the same hatred that pours money into the collection plates of the Robertsons and the Falwells, and is the fuel that drives the loathing and self-hatred that results in the few successes the gay-change ministries are able to eek out.
Every time a sissy gets beaten, a Matthew Shepard gets strung up on a fence, or Fred Phelps finds a new target that gets him in the newspapers, you can expect not just the gay press to wonder aloud where this hate is coming from.
You can try to deflect it by making your enemies appear to say something they didn't, but this truth is resonating too widely to cover it up any more. People are getting hurt as a by-product of this hate too often to minimize it as some one-time aberration. The general public is starting to connect the dots, and coming to the conclusion that if this is the way religious people are telling them to act, then religious people lack the compassion that religion is supposed to be a prime source for.
I'd suggest you have another look at the article, particularly the last paragraph. It doesn't say what you're claiming it does.
I am not reaching.
Here is a quote from the SOVO article:
"People like James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, Rick Santorum, George W. Bush and others who preach hatred and intolerance can't divorce themselves from cases like this one.
Every time a gay teen kills himself, or Christian parents locks their child in some religious hell hole that tries to brainwash their child straight, the preachers of hatred should be given credit for the seeds of tragedy they have sown."
The people named above cannot divorce themselves from this because they were never attached to it. There is no logical connection to this story. And I am not reaching when I deplore the connection the gay press is trying to make. Here are two headlines:
"Father "killed toddler over gay fears", court hears" - Gay.com UK
"Man accused of killing his 'gay' baby son" - PlanetOut
If you are looking for "reasons" for the man's madness, a Tampa Tribune article listed a few factors: "The prosecution's witnesses portrayed Ronnie Paris Jr. as a man who wanted more of his wife's attention, who complained about not having enough sex since the child was around and who openly questioned whether the boy was his."
I stand by my assessment of the point that it is shameful for anyone to use this tragic situation to try to score political points.
Here is a quote from the SOVO article:
"People like James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, Rick Santorum, George W. Bush and others who preach hatred and intolerance can't divorce themselves from cases like this one.
Every time a gay teen kills himself, or Christian parents locks their child in some religious hell hole that tries to brainwash their child straight, the preachers of hatred should be given credit for the seeds of tragedy they have sown."
The people named above cannot divorce themselves from this because they were never attached to it. There is no logical connection to this story. And I am not reaching when I deplore the connection the gay press is trying to make. Here are two headlines:
"Father "killed toddler over gay fears", court hears" - Gay.com UK
"Man accused of killing his 'gay' baby son" - PlanetOut
If you are looking for "reasons" for the man's madness, a Tampa Tribune article listed a few factors: "The prosecution's witnesses portrayed Ronnie Paris Jr. as a man who wanted more of his wife's attention, who complained about not having enough sex since the child was around and who openly questioned whether the boy was his."
I stand by my assessment of the point that it is shameful for anyone to use this tragic situation to try to score political points.
Please, this is a combination of all of the above; if the 'ex-gay movement' were nothing more than a bunch of of people who offered counselling to those who volunteerily came forward, then there would be no qualms.
The fact is, the ex-gay movement MARKET their product as something based on science fact, when all studies have shown, its no more reliable than thinking that if you make a lesbian wear a dress long enough, they'll magically turn into a straight laced female with a desire to marry her 'honey bunny' highschool sweet heart, and captain of the football team!
The ex-gay industry are hyping lies such as "if you son is femme, he is gay" or "if your daughter is a tomboy, then she is a lesbian" - you're PART of that movement Throckmorton, you need to distance yourself from these people, and re-evaluation, from top to bottom, your whole concept of reparative therapy.
Just a word to you; people who are claiming to 'hate being gay' are simply blaming their sexuality for stupid choices they've made in their life; they choose to be permiscious, they choose to drink to excess, they choose to have relationships with unstable people - they make choices, but instead of acting like a mature adult, and accepting that they made the decisions, and they made the mistake - not their sexuality.
Until they take that step into being an adult, they'll continue go through life blaming everyone else for their faulty decision making - and I'm sorry, masking all their problems with a whitewash of fairy tales of bumbo-jumbo isn't going to help them.
The fact is, the ex-gay movement MARKET their product as something based on science fact, when all studies have shown, its no more reliable than thinking that if you make a lesbian wear a dress long enough, they'll magically turn into a straight laced female with a desire to marry her 'honey bunny' highschool sweet heart, and captain of the football team!
The ex-gay industry are hyping lies such as "if you son is femme, he is gay" or "if your daughter is a tomboy, then she is a lesbian" - you're PART of that movement Throckmorton, you need to distance yourself from these people, and re-evaluation, from top to bottom, your whole concept of reparative therapy.
Just a word to you; people who are claiming to 'hate being gay' are simply blaming their sexuality for stupid choices they've made in their life; they choose to be permiscious, they choose to drink to excess, they choose to have relationships with unstable people - they make choices, but instead of acting like a mature adult, and accepting that they made the decisions, and they made the mistake - not their sexuality.
Until they take that step into being an adult, they'll continue go through life blaming everyone else for their faulty decision making - and I'm sorry, masking all their problems with a whitewash of fairy tales of bumbo-jumbo isn't going to help them.
# posted by 
: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:49:00 AM
: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:49:00 AM
For the record, I am not part of any movement that stereotypes children. Anyone who has seen I Do Exist would understand that. I have been in schools and other venues speaking against rigid stereotypes based on gender. The "ex-gay movement" as critics call it is quite diverse ideologically.
Having said that, I maintain it is perverse logic and magical thinking that implicates beliefs of people unrelated to an event and somehow finds a causal link.
As long as you are promoting wacky theories of causation, then how about blaming Michael Bailey, the researcher from Northwestern? He has suggested in print that once the gay gene is found, then parents can abort their pre-born gay children. So if you believe ex-gays might be to blame for the toddler's tragic death, then you might be more inclined to believe that Bailey is to blame. Anyone going to call the authorities?
Having said that, I maintain it is perverse logic and magical thinking that implicates beliefs of people unrelated to an event and somehow finds a causal link.
As long as you are promoting wacky theories of causation, then how about blaming Michael Bailey, the researcher from Northwestern? He has suggested in print that once the gay gene is found, then parents can abort their pre-born gay children. So if you believe ex-gays might be to blame for the toddler's tragic death, then you might be more inclined to believe that Bailey is to blame. Anyone going to call the authorities?
For the record, I am not part of any movement that stereotypes children. Anyone who has seen I Do Exist would understand that. I have been in schools and other venues speaking against rigid stereotypes based on gender. The "ex-gay movement" as critics call it is quite diverse ideologically.
'The loudest wheel is the one that gets the oil first' - same goes for the ex-gay movement, the loudest and most disruptive are the ones who define the industry over all.
I have never meet you, and heck, you may even be quite a nice guy, but the simple fact remains that the likes of EXODUS and LIA define your movement, the fusion of perverse theological teachings with mubo-jumbo science coupled with a laundry list of old wives tales - 'real men don't each quiche'.
Having said that, I maintain it is perverse logic and magical thinking that implicates beliefs of people unrelated to an event and somehow finds a causal link.
Sorry, as I said, all parties must take a roll in the blame, the pasters who push stories based on stereotypes generated by the ex-gay industry, and the pastors roll in pummelling it into the minds of his or her parishioners.
Like I said, if the ex-gay industry were just a bunch of people sitting around with an alternative way of thinking, I would have no qualms - just as I have no qualms about alternative medical doctors who may wish to pratice alternative treatments such natropath therapy.
Your logic comes unstuck when these ex-gay movements start promoting what they do as science fact, start ganging up with pastors, who old similar views, and create a mob mentality that spawns the like of this man who killed his toddler - it is also societies fault as a whole that gay people aren't accepted, and hence, the stigma with being gay - coupled that with a fathers already warped perspective on masculinity, little wonder things turned out the way they did.
As long as you are promoting wacky theories of causation, then how about blaming Michael Bailey, the researcher from Northwestern? He has suggested in print that once the gay gene is found, then parents can abort their pre-born gay children. So if you believe ex-gays might be to blame for the toddler's tragic death, then you might be more inclined to believe that Bailey is to blame. Anyone going to call the authorities?
He is *ONE* man, there are *MANY* theories and *MANY* people working on the issue, and unlike you and your entourage of merry converters, he doesn't seek a global empire, he doesn't seek the support of pastors, parishes and local community; he is a scientist, and if he is proven wrong, unlike the ilk who inhabit the ex-gay movement, he won't feel the need to start bending and twisting the facts to suit his particular dogma.
Science is about searching out the truth, the ex-gay movement on the other hand is about fusing faulty logic, religious dogma and bigotry into something that they can market as fact rather than what is truely is, old wives tales marketed incredibly well.
'The loudest wheel is the one that gets the oil first' - same goes for the ex-gay movement, the loudest and most disruptive are the ones who define the industry over all.
I have never meet you, and heck, you may even be quite a nice guy, but the simple fact remains that the likes of EXODUS and LIA define your movement, the fusion of perverse theological teachings with mubo-jumbo science coupled with a laundry list of old wives tales - 'real men don't each quiche'.
Having said that, I maintain it is perverse logic and magical thinking that implicates beliefs of people unrelated to an event and somehow finds a causal link.
Sorry, as I said, all parties must take a roll in the blame, the pasters who push stories based on stereotypes generated by the ex-gay industry, and the pastors roll in pummelling it into the minds of his or her parishioners.
Like I said, if the ex-gay industry were just a bunch of people sitting around with an alternative way of thinking, I would have no qualms - just as I have no qualms about alternative medical doctors who may wish to pratice alternative treatments such natropath therapy.
Your logic comes unstuck when these ex-gay movements start promoting what they do as science fact, start ganging up with pastors, who old similar views, and create a mob mentality that spawns the like of this man who killed his toddler - it is also societies fault as a whole that gay people aren't accepted, and hence, the stigma with being gay - coupled that with a fathers already warped perspective on masculinity, little wonder things turned out the way they did.
As long as you are promoting wacky theories of causation, then how about blaming Michael Bailey, the researcher from Northwestern? He has suggested in print that once the gay gene is found, then parents can abort their pre-born gay children. So if you believe ex-gays might be to blame for the toddler's tragic death, then you might be more inclined to believe that Bailey is to blame. Anyone going to call the authorities?
He is *ONE* man, there are *MANY* theories and *MANY* people working on the issue, and unlike you and your entourage of merry converters, he doesn't seek a global empire, he doesn't seek the support of pastors, parishes and local community; he is a scientist, and if he is proven wrong, unlike the ilk who inhabit the ex-gay movement, he won't feel the need to start bending and twisting the facts to suit his particular dogma.
Science is about searching out the truth, the ex-gay movement on the other hand is about fusing faulty logic, religious dogma and bigotry into something that they can market as fact rather than what is truely is, old wives tales marketed incredibly well.
# posted by : Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:15:00 AM
: Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:15:00 AM
There are so many distortions in Kaiwai's post that I cannot take time to respond to them all. I believe this effort to somehow link ex-gays with an event in Florida is like all magical thinking: I think it therefore it is true. Makes sense to me so therefore it is true. When people on the right talk about the "gay agenda" and the "homosexual lifestyle," gay groups rightly protest. This effort to find a link between ex-gays and a Florida toddler is on the same order, only more bizarre.
This appears to be the same tactic used in the Matthew Shepard case. Take a highly emotional crime and link it by the disproponderence of no evidence to a group one despises. Its a tactic also used by Hitler to turn public sentiment against the Jews. Its as digusting and nauseating for gays to use it to "prove a point" as it was for the father to murder the child.
Well, DL, I don't think it is as disgusting as the poor toddler's fate, but it is disgusting and it does add to the general bitterness that this subject seems to generate. I have been involved in this issue pretty directly since 1997 and I have never felt more hatred than I have this past year. And all because we believe people can organize their identities around their beliefs over their feelings...
I'd like to respond to the following two comments by Kaiwai:
Like I said, if the ex-gay industry were just a bunch of people sitting around with an alternative way of thinking, I would have no qualms...
these ex-gay movements start ganging up with pastors, who hold similar views, and create a mob mentality...
What planet do you live on? What do you know about these ex-gay organizations? I know Exodus and Evergreen (two of the largest organizations) quite well, and neither of them do anything you claim. In fact, they are just sitting around purporting a philosophy that if someone does not want to be gay, there are other options and support. People seek these organizations out to find help. Exodus and Evergreen are not out on the street snatching people who walk by.
How are they "ganging up in a mob mentality?" Exodus put up one billboard to let people know they exist. How is that a mob mentality??
If you don't want to participate in therapy or support groups, no one is making you, or anyone else. (I'll be the first to acknowledge that in a few cases, parents force their kids to do things they don't want to do. This is not the fault of ex-gay organizations.) People are involved in ex-gay organizations because they want to be and because they are finding the help they want. People who don't want it stop participating. There is no mob mentality here that is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.
I've personally met hundreds of people who have been involved in ex-gay organizations. Some of those decided it was not for them, so they stopped participating. I have never met anyone who was harmed by it or who participated against their will.
Like I said, if the ex-gay industry were just a bunch of people sitting around with an alternative way of thinking, I would have no qualms...
these ex-gay movements start ganging up with pastors, who hold similar views, and create a mob mentality...
What planet do you live on? What do you know about these ex-gay organizations? I know Exodus and Evergreen (two of the largest organizations) quite well, and neither of them do anything you claim. In fact, they are just sitting around purporting a philosophy that if someone does not want to be gay, there are other options and support. People seek these organizations out to find help. Exodus and Evergreen are not out on the street snatching people who walk by.
How are they "ganging up in a mob mentality?" Exodus put up one billboard to let people know they exist. How is that a mob mentality??
If you don't want to participate in therapy or support groups, no one is making you, or anyone else. (I'll be the first to acknowledge that in a few cases, parents force their kids to do things they don't want to do. This is not the fault of ex-gay organizations.) People are involved in ex-gay organizations because they want to be and because they are finding the help they want. People who don't want it stop participating. There is no mob mentality here that is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.
I've personally met hundreds of people who have been involved in ex-gay organizations. Some of those decided it was not for them, so they stopped participating. I have never met anyone who was harmed by it or who participated against their will.
Rich and Jason:
These are two of the most intelligant and truthful posts on this subject and the subject of homosexual behavior I have ever seen.
You are to be commended for being so honest and above board.
All who have had enough of the in your face homosexuals are not haters but rather just disgusted.
The Fred Phelps' of the world are not Christian but use that title to do their evil. God does not hate homosexuals. God hates what they do but wants them to come to Him. Fred P. and the likes of him will only cause more and more hatred toward true Christians. They make me very ashamed.
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These are two of the most intelligant and truthful posts on this subject and the subject of homosexual behavior I have ever seen.
You are to be commended for being so honest and above board.
All who have had enough of the in your face homosexuals are not haters but rather just disgusted.
The Fred Phelps' of the world are not Christian but use that title to do their evil. God does not hate homosexuals. God hates what they do but wants them to come to Him. Fred P. and the likes of him will only cause more and more hatred toward true Christians. They make me very ashamed.
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