Warren Throckmorton

Please see a new post on this study. I think the findings are quite interesting given the claim in the Salon.com article by psychiatrist Jack Dresher that people are reporting increasing harm.
 

Question; had these people not isolated themselves from the rest of the community, would they have reverted back to homosexuality? that is, if there wasn't the bully entourage that follows the fundamentalist movement around, what would be the likelihood of them being homosexual today?

I challenge you to grab a random gay person; do your voodoo magic, then throw him back into a gay community, and see how long his 'straightness' will last.
 

kaiwai:

Perhaps you have had an experience like that, and if so, it would be wrong headed. Its obvious to me that you do not understand what I do. I have no voodoo magic and I would never think of "grabbing a random gay person" as a client. One of the damages done by this Salon article is the perception left that this is how ethical therapists operate.

People who want to live in accord with their religious beliefs can do so. This does not mean that their feelings will change. For some they do change, for others they do not change much if at all.

I think it can be harmful for counselors to over promise and I am clear to get informed consent with a clear explanation of the research as we know it. The client decides that his/her same sex attractions do not signal a gay identity, I do not decide for anyone.
 

I think it can be harmful for counselors to over promise and I am clear to get informed consent with a clear explanation of the research as we know it. The client decides that his/her same sex attractions do not signal a gay identity, I do not decide for anyone.

But at the same time, if the client is adamant that the sky is pink, people are out to get him, and the president was put there as god - as a counsellor, would you consider that stable and rational behaviour?

If the person has same sex attracts and has conflicts with those attractions; wouldn't it be best to address the source of those conflicts before jumping to the deep end, and starting reparative therapy? if the mad man considers himself sane, does it make is so? of course not.

Yes, I have meet these 'ex-gays' and 9/10 times these people have alot more problems in their life than simply the fact that they're gay; maybe thats what you should be sorting out first; maybe after sourting those out, and getting the individual back onto the straight narrow, they may actually be happy having those same sex attractions - and thus, the cause of their discomfort wasn't the same sex attractions, but something else entirely.
 

Of course what you are suggesting is done. My research into this topic suggests that many counselors who work in this area also do that. It would poor practice not to address the issues you raise. However, saying this does not negate my basic point that clients are the ones who decide what objectives to pursue. I disagree that pursuing an identity consistent with your conservative religious beliefs is delusional.
 

Of course what you are suggesting is done. My research into this topic suggests that many counselors who work in this area also do that. It would poor practice not to address the issues you raise. However, saying this does not negate my basic point that clients are the ones who decide what objectives to pursue.

True, but at the same time, if they're misserable when gay, and still misserable when straight, then the issue isn't so much sexual orientation re-assignment, its actually a process of discovering their real sexual orientation - and as a counsellor, you help them find their real sexual orientation.

Yes, there are those who have suffered from sexual abuse and thus, have a distorted view on relationships and sexuality, but at the same time - don't confuse the two.

I disagree that pursuing an identity consistent with your conservative religious beliefs is delusional.

How so? so you'd rather see your patient misserable just so that they can keep worshipping their sky daddy whilst holding onto dellusion beliefs that make little or no sense what so ever?

Please, Christianity is such a diverse, and ever changing religion, one can always find a branch that reconciles their particular vice with their beliefs - to say that they're *stuck* is little more than fobbing the responsibility off onto someone else.
 

Kaiwai, you are making many assumptions. You assume that all or most who seek reorientation are miserable. Research and my experience does not bear this out. Counselors who treat depression but do not see improvement are ethically bound to refer clients for another opinion or additional care.
 

Kaiwai, you are making many assumptions. You assume that all or most who seek reorientation are miserable.

Then why seek "sexual re-orientation"? if a person feels the needs to seek re-assignment, isn't it an issue that they're unhappy with who they are, and thus, they think if they change their particular vice to something that is considered 'acceptable', they would spontaneously become happy?

Just look at Rev Smid (yes, I can't believe than any old person can take on that title) - he's prances around claiming he is cured, and yet, he still has same sex attraction - doesn't that, in itself, tell you something?

Like I said, if the purpose was to delve into someones mind and help them uncover their sexual 'true sexual orientation', then I can understand, but the idea of conversion, is a flawed practice to say the least.

If someone is 'ex-gay', is it necessary to call themselves ex-gay? they're straight, so why not go about their life? all it seems to me is that they have some major self esteme issues where by they need to surround themselves with people who have like minded, small minded views on sexuality and sexual orientation.

The other side of the coin are those scream they're ex-ex-gay, as if they're some how the 'reformed smoker' who needs to inform everyone that they too gave up, and everyone else should do likewise.

Research and my experience does not bear this out. Counselors who treat depression but do not see improvement are ethically bound to refer clients for another opinion or additional care.

You're making assumptions that counsellors, especially those who religious leanings, are willing to accept they've made a mistake, and thus, refer it onto someone else; a persons ego can be an incredibly large thing.
 

If someone is 'ex-gay', is it necessary to call themselves ex-gay? they're straight, so why not go about their life? all it seems to me is that they have some major self esteme issues where by they need to surround themselves with people who have like minded, small minded views on sexuality and sexual orientation.

This is just my opinion but I think there would not be so much emphasis on the term ex-gay if there wasn't so much doubt about the existence of ex-gays.
 

RE: Saltnlight

Please, your dogmatic, fundamentalist views are short sighted, childish and pathetic at best; how about using that god given brain for something more substantial than hugging onto stories from 3000 years ago, written by disgruntled goat herders with nothing better to do.

Maybe once you've grown a back bone and embraced a little maturity, you will find that there was nothing wrong with your same sex attractions and that your religious zealotry is merely a front to cover up some deep seated internal struggle that can be traced back to your childhood.

RE: Bill Rich

Why do you assume that all ex-gays want to change because they are miserable--and that they're miserable before and after counseling?

I was never misserable, but just wasn't comfortable being gay. It also didn't fit my personal values. So I sought counseling, which helped me understand my feelings and attractions, work through some unresolved issues, and move on with life. My same-sex attractions went away. I'm straight. I'm not dillusional. I'm happy. I'm well-adjusted. I'm glad that therapists are willing to help clients resolve issues in their lives that bother them.

So your issue wasn't your same sex attractions, but the lack of a mature sexuality that truely represented who you were - correct? The fact that you had conflicting emotions, and that the one way you were subconsciencely about to sort this out was to have those same sex attractions?

As for your personal values, what conflict? you're saying to me, as an adult, that you didn't have the back bone to decide the direction of your life, so your instead replace the dictatorial powers of your parents with the overbearing, bully-boy tactics of your church instead?

Are you saying to me, that the only way that you're satisifed is whether your masters at your locall cult of choice is happy with your achievement?

Sorry, as an *INDIVIDUAL*, I certainly don't feel the desire of needing to measure up to another humans expectations of me; I am the maker of my own destiny, and for all the polava that the church may spread, they're little more than a organisation of facists, designed for individuals who feel the need to live up to something greater than themselves because in their own mind, the horizons are so small, the chances of them having something anything greater than what they understand is pretty much a stunted concept.
 

kaiwai - You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not going to convince a theist of the benefit of self-reliance. To us, you seem like the man sitting on the railroad tracks blissfully unaware of impending doom from the train. We can see it but you refuse to acknowledge the existance of the train. We can agree to disagree about this but you will not win any arguments against ex-gays by dissing their faith.
 

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Maybe once you've grown a back bone and embraced a little maturity, you will find that there was nothing wrong with your same sex attractions and that your religious zealotry is merely a front to cover up some deep seated internal struggle that can be traced back to your childhood.

Now, kaiwai, I am sure she was born religious that way. At least that is what Dean Hamer says. There is of course no evidence that such religious fervor has a relationship to childhood events. Strong evidence exists for a biological basis for religious devotion. You should be more tolerant.
 

RE: Throckmorton

Now, kaiwai, I am sure she was born religious that way. At least that is what Dean Hamer says. There is of course no evidence that such religious fervor has a relationship to childhood events. Strong evidence exists for a biological basis for religious devotion. You should be more tolerant.

Or mental defect; as demostrated by by Uncle, who went from a conservative Catholic position, that was partially tolerable, to a full out, ultra conservative Catholic, after being in a car accident and suffering brain injury.

Apartly its quite common for those involved in accidents where their brain is affected, impulsiveness and zealotry can be some of the symptoms and any existing zealotry could be pushed to the extreme end of the spectrum.

You're also talking about part of the brain that can be stimulated by electronic impulses and as a result, cause the creation of 'miracle' and 'vision' like trances, which 'devout' Christians claim they've received an email by god, when in reality, its nothing more than a damn good brain jiggy.

kaiwai - You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not going to convince a theist of the benefit of self-reliance. To us, you seem like the man sitting on the railroad tracks blissfully unaware of impending doom from the train. We can see it but you refuse to acknowledge the existance of the train. We can agree to disagree about this but you will not win any arguments against ex-gays by dissing their faith.

I diss their faith because they make it the centre piece of their existance.

A healthy, stable life consists of three areas; physical, mental and spiritual; those three must be in balance with each other, with one part not taking a dominating position over another.

The problem I have is with people like saltnlight, who have allowed religion to not only play a relatively important role in their life, but to allow it to take an overwhelming, dominating, almost cancer like grip on their life, where by they've thrown any possible rational thinking to the way side, and instead decided to completely and utter throw themselves into something without even giving it the slightest bit of rational thought.

I am sure when God said, "believe in me" he didn't in the same breath say, "hang up your brains and become mindless parrots of the bible".

I have met wonderful people who have embraced the TRUE message of the gospel - not the zealot, hated driven polava that Saltnlight seems to worship. Unlike Saltnlight, they've embraced me and accepted me for who I am, and although I don't share the same theological leanings, as one said, "we all have a different path to god".

Just as a side product; I'm a Buddhist who believes that there is something larger, spritual, out there, that can't be described by man, as it is too big and complicated to understand.

RE: Saltnlight

And yet another post of waffle, bible bashing and zealotry; Try again sunshine, and next time, use something more substaintial than the ramblings of a few shepards.

If I stood up, with the book of "UNIX Complete" in one hand (for those interested, its US$19.99), and claim that to be the word of god; who are you to judge whether or not it is the word of god? who are you to claim that the author wasn't enspired by devine intervention?

See, I too can be stupid, and put a book at the centre of my existance, then elevate it to something more than it was originally written to do.
 

kaiwai - I diss their faith because they make it the centre piece of their existance.

Yes, that is pretty much the point. You can disagree for your own path that you should not do that (a moral absolute statement in itself) but unless you are prepared to set yourself up as god, then I do not see how you can authoritatively decree it as bad.

Your thoughts about what Jesus wants or said are pretty uninformed. You should read what he said before you quote or paraphrase Him.

Unlike Saltnlight, they've embraced me and accepted me for who I am, and although I don't share the same theological leanings, as one said, "we all have a different path to god".

This is an example that you don't catch the true message of the gospel. Jesus said, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by me." Sounds like one path to me.

Finally, let me ask all posters to refrain from demeaning others religions or beliefs. Debating the merits is fine but I do not like personal attacks. Also, while this gets personal for many, I also hope we can stay on topic which for this thread is the founders of Exodus and what their experience may or may not say about sexuality.
 

Yes, that is pretty much the point. You can disagree for your own path that you should not do that (a moral absolute statement in itself) but unless you are prepared to set yourself up as god, then I do not see how you can authoritatively decree it as bad.

I see it as bad because it is setting an individual up with an unbalanced life. Instead of embracing and living their life, they spend their time walking around, waving their big finger and passing judgements upon others; "let the man without sin cast the first stone".

Oh, and if you want a nutshell, concise version of what Jesus said on earth; "Love your neighbour as you love yourself".

Your thoughts about what Jesus wants or said are pretty uninformed. You should read what he said before you quote or paraphrase Him.

And I am sure Jesus was quite a nice chap, the type you could probably sit down, have a cup of coffee with, and talk about great theological thoughts, but at the same time, being a nice guy doesn't equate to one either being the son of God or God's PR man on earth.

This is an example that you don't catch the true message of the gospel. Jesus said, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by me." Sounds like one path to me.

Assuming you believe in Jesus, assuming one belives the trinity, one also assumes that believing in Jesus or God directly lead to the same thing.

Finally, let me ask all posters to refrain from demeaning others religions or beliefs. Debating the merits is fine but I do not like personal attacks. Also, while this gets personal for many, I also hope we can stay on topic which for this thread is the founders of Exodus and what their experience may or may not say about sexuality.

It would be also nice for the likes of saltnlight tone down here hell, fire and brimstone; she maybe bitter, twisted, and like all people misserable, she seeks others to pull others down so that she has company, but please, you you put her on her lesh, and I'll refrain from attacking her with my firebrand replies.
 

You should also note that John Evans, one of the two original founders of Love in Action is an openly gay Christian man who continues to denounce what LIA and other programs, such as Exodus continue to do, which he refers to as "causing great harm to peoples lives". Mr Evans, a fellow Christian is "HEARTBROKEN" that LIA would also now hold a program for youth(Refuge). John left LIA when he saw his best friend, Jack McKintyre commit suicide due to the programs inability to help. It is such a shame that these programs and their allies continue to discredit the very people who's lives are shattered because o the misinformation and false claims that are made, using biased "statistics" and outdated pseudo psychology. Unfortunately Dr, you do no justice to god's hope that all men are able to live happy productive lives in his eyes when you continually justify your own life with his words falsely condemning other people to and end, creating fear and shame upon them, allowing them to fall apart and never be able to acheive true happiness and fullness in life. We all can only hope that one day you will learn to allow good people to live as they are, and focus on the sins and flaws of your own lives, ending the persecution and oppression of others that have to suffer daily due to the descrimination that you and your allies uphold with your father unfortunately misguided practices. Best of luck, and God bless you.
 

Oh, and the two original Exodus founders, Michael Bussey, and Gary Cooper both went on the lead happy lives as gay men, getting married to one another. So, unfortunately your assertion that only one of the original Exodus founders went on to denounce the organization and lead a happy gay life, is quite unfactual. Aslo, can you tell me why these organizations, such as Love In Action mention their orginal founders, John Evans, and Kent Philpott nowhere on their site? Doesn't it seem hypocritical, when one of their main applications to living with Christ is to be open and honest at all times. They deliberately hide these men from their "history" because they are ashamed of apart of their past. It's a bit misleading to say the least.
 

momo wrote:
Oh, and the two original Exodus founders, Michael Bussey, and Gary Cooper both went on the lead happy lives as gay men, getting married to one another. So, unfortunately your assertion that only one of the original Exodus founders went on to denounce the organization and lead a happy gay life, is quite unfactual.

Did you even read the article about the founders of Exodus? Your assertion is not based in fact but hearsay. I have interviewed all of the founders except Bussee (whom I could not find) and they all agree. Further, Cooper is not on any incorporation papers, nor on any of the board minutes so how could he be a founder if he was never on the board?

As to the other people you mention, this is relevant only to their situation. Also, as long as critics are going to be deceptive about Exodus, then I am not in a position to believe any claims until I have verified them personally. I am not saying everybody is helped by ex-gay ministries, but you are saying no one is helped. My research has disconfirmed your claims.
 

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Cooper, and Bussee organized the first gahtering of Ex-gay groups in which Exodus formed out of...and went around the county talking for Exodus, until they could no longer do so because they realized the truth was more important than the lies...They were in love with one another. Their last speaking engagement they actually did the favor of telling the truth and delivered an improvised speach about the love that had freed them...Bussee you will not find anywhere because he's not alive..but let's think for a moment, I have a dear friend who went through Love In Action in 1998, at the time there were 11 people in the program...he has stayed in touch with 9 of them, all of which are openly gay people, happy, and finally out of the "shame, and lies" that they were lead into by said ministries...Lets also look at the lists...I'm sure these names all ring a bell for you Mr. Throckmorton...Michael Johnston, John Paulk, Colin Cook, Wade Richards, the three people i've already mentioned, and those are only some of the founders, and poster children/men for the movement. I'm not denying that these ministries offer some help to some people, sure..but I must ask why there's a continual need to offer biased, slanted, untrue information about gay people in order to accomplish your goals. It's misleading, and as a good christian you know it deep in your heart, you know that when you claim to offer all sides, you are not, and when you claim to "love homosexuals" you are not...And please forgive me if you do not make these claims at all...I might be generalizing and I apologize, it's just, Warren, when I've seen so many people's lives wrecked because of these ministries, and when I've seen so many people lives wrecked because people hold negative views against gay people..they want them to change, they hate them, they believe they're going to hell..it ruins their lives...We all want love, dear sir, we all want to be apart of a family to love and be loved..;and as God's children, we all deserve love...and when i've seen people time and time again become harmed by the idea's that you promote, the view of gay people that you promote, and by ex-gay ministries...then I have to ask myself...what would Jesus do?
 

FH wrote:
Cooper, and Bussee organized the first gahtering of Ex-gay groups in which Exodus formed out of...and went around the county talking for Exodus, until they could no longer do so because they realized the truth was more important than the lies...They were in love with one another. Their last speaking engagement they actually did the favor of telling the truth and delivered an improvised speach about the love that had freed them...Bussee you will not find anywhere because he's not alive...

Bussee and Cooper were not the only ones who did this. Frank Worthen was approached by Bussee to find some way to bring together the emerging ex-gay ministries. They opted for a conference. Cooper was also involved in the Exit ministry with Bussee and others. I am not denying Cooper was in EXIT but the use of the word founder is misleading and used by critics of Exodus to create a false impression. By the way, Cooper is the one who is dead.

You are the one who is not giving all sides. I do not deny that there are those who have left ex-gay ministries. You will not acknowledge that 80% of the founders are still ex-gay. You continue to use John Paulk's name as someone who is no longer ex-gay. He did something he is not proud of but he is still with his wife and still in ministry. No one has accused him of going back to gay identity or life because he did not. Your concerns will be taken more seriously when you tell the whole story and do not exaggerate for effect.

I am interested in verifying the claims about 9 out of 11 of the Love in Action grads are gay. They have had way more than 11 grads but I am interested in knowing why some people feel so positively about LIA and some do not.
 

God is not the "center of my existance" He is my existance. The only reason I have to exist is because He has seen fit to allow me to do so.

Whether you believe it or not He is the only reason you so exist as well.

Once you got to know Him only then would you see more clearly. Right now all you see is what the world has to offer you and nothing beyond that.

I do not appreciate the daggers you throw at me over and over again. However only once have I retaliated with a name for you and that got deleted by admin. Evidently you are being given more rope than I. To that I toast you, Here's to your necktie party.
 

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Besen and Salon have only one goal as they write these types of articles. That is, to discredit the therapy that has led to many people leaving the homosexual behavior.

So ugly is this desire, ugly because it seeks to close down for others their opportunity to exercise their personal rights. We constantly hear the homosexual community gripeing about 'rights' and yet here they are stealing the rights of others.

So what if some men fell back into their previous practices? So what if they fell off their "wagons" so to speak. Would there be this much controversy over drunks falling off the wagon?? No!! And why not? Because their fall back into alcohol abuse is not sexual and deliverance from alcohol is not as all inclusive as deliverance from homosexuality.

Here were men who said it could be done and in fact led others to seek help and threw a monkey wrench into the idea that one couldn't help being gay. The idea that you were born this way went to the wayside with this being the case. It more or less took the legs from the homosexual behavior.

Why wouldn't the homosexual hate such an idea and want more than anything to discredit the very ones who had been leaders in this therapy??

When I was actively lesbian I hated Anita Bryant and anyone who called my life 'sin'. As far as I was concerned, I loved the woman I was with and this idea, that one could change threatened me. That was before I came to realise that Christ was real and He followed God. He said, "I do only that which the Father does."

No, Jesus said nothing bad about homosexuality but what He did not say that was good could fill a book. In speaking of the way God created the human race Jesus was more than clear. Read Matthew 19 and you will see. God created us, male and female, and for this reason man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.
For what reason did God make us male and female??? So that the two can come together and be one flesh.

This my unbelieving friend is the very purpose of God's entire plan. We are the picture of the Bride of Christ. The body of Christ, the church. The mystery of why we come together and why when one part of the body is in pain we all are in pain.

Well, that is deep and I do not expect some to understand that but, homosexuality is sin and can be overcome if we truly want to live for Christ who died for us. This needs to be known, that change is possible and it is horrible to keep it from the very ones who want to change so badly.
 

dr....

OF course LIA has had more graduates than that, I'm only saying that at the time this guy went through the program that's how many people "graduated" and of course are considered "sucess stories", however, LIA does not keep in contact with these people, and the 9 of 11 are who this former client knows, and they're all openly gay. I've also talked to youth who've been forced into the program, having their parents threaten them with things like financial burden and kicking them out if they do not go, and they end up lying to their parents for ex amount of years becasue they are so scared of what they will do to them. Likewise, Ex-gay ministries take a similar toll. You start with the idea that if you fall in love with someone of the same sex, then you are in sin, and that you'll have a horrible life...that's not such a nice thing to tell someone in need. Present all sides...Sure, help those in need, but not allowing people to know that you can be a happy, healthy, productive, loving and loved individual in this world, and be gay...is just abuse, and manipulation.

I truly hope to see all sides, and like I said, I see that people have been helped, but why is it that everytime someone that's been through these programs talks about it to me they say that, of the people that go through the programs, there's around a 90% rate of those who go on to lead happy lives as gay people...when you teach people live in fear and shame for who they are...they no doubtably will go thorugh these programs trying as hard as they can to please those involved, and feel loved by those involved, because God knows they need, and deserve love, since society at large tells them otherwise...So they look for that love, but when they leave the programs and realize they only been taught to suppress, and to feel self-hatred..and then realize that people will love them for WHO THEY ARE, not WHO THEY HIDE/HATE/ARE ASHAMED OF, then these people finally are allowed to live free.

I wish you the best, however, for the wouded and devastated people of the world who deserve love for who they are, I must speak.

You have to see that when people attribute the unhappiness, lonliness, suicidal tendencies that gay people just might(as heterosexuals), that they might be more suceptable to these feeling and thoughts because they are told that they are sinners, that they are not "of God", that they will live miserable lives...they are kicked out of their homes, subjected to violence, and descrimination, they are treated as different....HOW CAN ONE HONESTLY attribute this to being gay...it's like...hey, if you just cover up your black skin, then you won't have to face descrimintation...of course, that may be an easier out...but the REAL PROBLEM doesn't stop until we actually deal with the problem...which is the miseducation, bias, and prejudice.

I wonder when we'll learn from our embarasing past of descrimintating against human beings.
 

oh, and as a question...
what is your message to those people who've speant tons of money in these programs, who now live as openly gay people? and what's your message to the teenagers who are there in the programs against their will?

And, if i feel true love for someone of the same sex, what's your message to me?
 

Momo:
You have spoken of parents who "threaten them with things like financial burden and kicking them out if they do not go' concerning reparitive therapy. May I remind you that some parents have no idea how to parent and believe that rules are the only way to go. Rules without relationship equal ruin. First must come love and bonding between the youth and the parents, not just a bunch of rules.

Again this kind of thinking will not get good results. That is not a reason for comming against the therapy.

You also class ex-gay ministries together with this kind of parenting. That is wrong. For one thing most people know that sexual behavior between two of the same sex is not acceptable behavior. What you have here is total imbalance.

Out of all the major religions in the world not one of them condone this behavior. Oh we have some split offs from all the major religions that try to convince people that it is accepted but this does not change a thing according to doctrine.

What happens between two of the same sex is not love, it is fulfilling the lust of the flesh.

You ask why not let people know they can be happy, healthy etc. Because the majority are not thus. Not only that but we must answer to a higher authority and though one who is gay may be happy as a lark on earth, according to God that is very temporary.

Seeing my brother ready to put his foot into a vipers den and not warning him is what is being done by those who sugar coat what is true.

I see you want to lay the blame at the feet of the ex-gay promoters of reparitive therapy and also at the feet of the God who made the standards by which we are to live.

What a twisted way of thinking. Take away the laws and everyone will be alright!! Baloney, This is ridiculous. Suicide in the homosexual community is due to many things, one of which may be a sense of guilt but that isn't all.

Cut the straw grasping. If we all shut up today about sin and God's wrath, this would not change the fact that all of those things are true. That would not lessen the suicide rate in homosexuals.

Don't even go the color route, homosexuals have angered the black population enough without that. The two aren't even vaguely similar. Being black is God given, homosexuality is not.
 

I feel sorrow for your oppressive, and wreckless views, misusing God's messages to condemn people.

I wonder where get the idea that it is not in the majority true that gay people are happy, healthy and productive. you obviously do not know many gay people who are apart of society...you obvioulsy have very little contact with gay people, other than those who are already so damaged by the bias and condemnation that you promote, that, sure, of course, they will not be very happy.

I'm sure God will forgive you, though, in your condemnation of others, and your use of biased information, because God forgives, and he will not descriminate against you just because you have, and are making the mistakes that you are making.

I pray that you will have strength to forgive yourself as well, as you will see the happy, productive God given love that gay people have to offer in this world, even though you condemn them with your misuse of the bible.

As far as the "color route"(ouch), I would say, again, you are misusing a very small and selective voice, because it goes both ways. And, of course lets us look at the segment of the population during the civil rights era, and previous to that era, and what they used to descriminate against people of color...you look at the terminology and justifications, and it's identical to that which is used against gay people.

Of course, we now know that passages in the bible that were used to promote the agenda of those who firmly believed prejudice against blacks was morally "with God" are not used to do so...In the current day and age, however, some people are not able to see that they are doing the same thing today, USING THE BIBLE to promote their agenda. I just feel that it's unfortunate, but I know that God will forgive you.

As to your comment about "laying the blame at the feet of God", I'm not laying blame there, I know the God is with us, unfortunately you've misinterpreted his messages to condemn people...human beings.

AS for coupling bad parenting with reparative therapy, i'm also not doing that...I'm simply saying that the inappropriate messages of condemnation that are proclaimed by reparative therapists further promote the harmful and dangerous misguidance that leads people to hate, and rejection of human beings.

I know that some people are "helped" by reparative therapy, and In all of my work, I promote that, and honor that choice, and show both sides, including the minority, which happens to be those who are "helped"...However, reparative therapists ignore what they consider the minority...they ignore the constanst testimonies of people who have been harmed, they ignore ALL MAJOR MEDICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL ORGANIZATIONS who warn about the problematic and harmful effects of reparative therapy, and most of all, they simply misinform people about the very factual reality that many many gay people lead wonderful, happy, honest, productive healthy, loving lives...If you can show me A SINGLE REPRATIVE THERAPY organization that shows both viewpoints, offering "all options" as many of them claim to do...then let's talk a little further about this...

I will honor your truth, I will, I want to and plan to, and have in all that I do...thanks for helping educate me, it is vital we all listen and learn from one another..



I will pray for you, God Loves you!
 

Mom:
Please tell me where did I do this, "misusing God's messages to condemn people."??
or This,"your use of biased information," ???
or this, " you condemn them with your misuse of the bible."????

"you look at the terminology and justifications, and it's identical to that which is used against gay people."

Wrong!! the bible is very clear in what it says about men with men and women with women and doing things that are unseemly. It is very clear in all counts and in all verses concerning the behavior of homosexuality where it was not at all clear on the issue of race. That was all due to slave owners who did not want to lose their slave laborers. There are no such persons with no such motives in we who are trying to get equal time to tell of possible change from homosexuality.

As fopr the remainder of your post, you read into what I had to say as though I were blaming you for things I was not. You need to go back and re-read it.

"this kind of thinking will not get good results" was not directed at you Momo but rather the thinking of the parents who put rules before relationship.

I want you to put here just one place in all of Scripture where God has blessed homosexuality. And don't give me this garbage about David's love for Jonathan unless you can back it up with proofs. His love for Jonathan bing greater than love for woman is not a case for homosexual love. What it is saying is that his love for Jonathan has not got the fickle or sexual hangups that love for a woman invites. It is pure and wholesome, where David knew that love with woman can be more lust than love. Look at his life, he had many women but his relationship with Jonathan was one of honor and integrity. Jonathan after all would even tell David the plans of his father. What woman would have done that? To try and make this into a homosexual thing is to blaspheme God's Word.

Momo, what you have written here is just a culmination of junk you have learned from people who want desperately to hang onto their sin. Do not pray to your god for me for my God has already forgiven me. I will pray to the God of Jacob and the Father of lights for you. He will open your eyes Momo.
 

Momo:
"And, if i feel true love for someone of the same sex, what's your message to me?"

Saltnlight's answer:

How do you 'feel' true love???
Love is not a feeling, it is an action. Feelings come later and are emotions.

I love you Momo and have no feelings for you at all. My love is there because God first loved me and caused me to want to love you.

How is love shown to others?? In telling them the truth for no other reason other than that God wants them to be His.

You claim that you love the same sex individual, yet I say to you that what you have here is love turned to lust because you have perverted it with unnatural sex. In doing so you are not alone in the judgement of God and His wrath, you have now entered another person into that damnation with you. I ask, is this love?

I think not. It is selfishness magnified.
 

Again, I will pray for you and your unfortunate misunderstandings. You know not of my love, and my peace.

I feel sorrow for your inappropriate views which allow you to justify condemning people and judging them...It creates sorrow deep in my heart that you will, unfortunately, hurt so many people in your lifetime by misleading them by interpreting FOR YOUR SELF(ishness) these small verses. Unfortunately, if only Jesus would have plainly backed your judgemental viewpoints, it would indeed give you more of a bass to stand on...but he didn't. Of course, you may interprate certain things and twist them any way you'd like FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL AGENDA...of course, you have alot of work to do to by taking even more obvious verses in the bible that appear many more times than anything about homosexuality, however, since the word homosexuality never appeared in the bible, we might question if it at all is referring to what we now know about gay people, who they are, what they're capable of, etc...of course, you might say that the word homosexuality was used to modernize the message, to make it clearer, so it appears in some bible's today..however, that clearly is underneathe someone's agenda...to redefine the original text, replacing it with new terminologies...just as interpretations, over time, have been redefined....

But you know, what it boils down to is this...

If i am a good person, who is good to people, who loves, helps others out, gives to those in need, cares for my neighbor, and will respect others...

then who are you, as a human being, to condemn me? is it your job? maybe. maybe it is. that's your choice, but what if...what if you come to realize you're wrong...and then you've simply done harm, pointed fingers, placed judgement, and pointed fingers...

"judge not....." how does the rest of that statement go?

I am learning to follow these messages. it is important, as I know. And like i said, I'm learning from you. It's great you can share your knowledge, and your dedication.